Nirvana: Lilja 457 and Tenex lot testing

[garandman]

So based on your theory, a rifle set with a headspace of .050" and one set with a headspace of .043" are going to engrave the same? (Yes, I realize those are extreme examples, but that's the point isn't it?)

Headspace in 22RF is the most finicky change in accuracy you can get. .043" might shoot horrible in your rifle, take .001" shim out and adjust to .042" and it might shoot dimes. OAL, engraving, etc will always have affects on accuracy in 22RF.

EXACTLY what Carson Lilja told me - shim for accuracy.

This rifle, with the target pictured above , gives me all I need to see that he knows what hes talking about. I actually sent my action to him to shim and install barrel… seems like an easy enough thing to do but I wanted him to do it. And it shoots under 0.3"

 

[garandman]

From the CMP:


"Headspace is defined as the space or distance between the face of the bolt and a specific predetermined point in or at the chamber."

________

"Shimming" pushes the entire barrel further away from the bolt face. It moves the bearing surface on which the rim seats further away from the bolt face, and increases headspace. In a 22 rf barrel set up with shims, and not glued / threaded in a more permanent fashion, the shims are placed in the receiver, between it and the barrel, and increase headspace, and are a primary way of tuning a rifle for a particular ammo.

 

[garandman]

Update: match winner tonite, 248/250, 15x...

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

So based on your theory, a rifle set with a headspace of .050" and one set with a headspace of .043" are going to engrave the same? (Yes, I realize those are extreme examples, but that's the point isn't it?)

Headspace in 22RF is the most finicky change in accuracy you can get. .043" might shoot horrible in your rifle, take .001" shim out and adjust to .042" and it might shoot dimes. OAL, engraving, etc will always have affects on accuracy in 22RF.

You ever shot a .22 lr with 0.050 headspace? I find it hard to believe a headspace of 0.043 on a good quality barrel would shoot bad, unless the chamber was done incorrectly are you speaking from experience?
one last thing, if a barrel I had shot dimes as you use, it wouldn't be on my rifle for very long, I shoot at pen dots mostly RBA with some ARA thrown in

Lee

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

From the CMP:


"Headspace is defined as the space or distance between the face of the bolt and a specific predetermined point in or at the chamber."

________

"Shimming" pushes the entire barrel further away from the bolt face. It moves the bearing surface on which the rim seats further away from the bolt face, and increases headspace. In a 22 rf barrel set up with shims, and not glued / threaded in a more permanent fashion, the shims are placed in the receiver, between it and the barrel, and increase headspace, and are a primary way of tuning a rifle for a particular ammo.

 

[garandman]

See above. Match winner. It works. Beat a line full of very high dollar Anschutzes, Coopers, etc. Results dont lie.

But if you must argue, call up and Argue it with Carson Lilja.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

See above. Match winner. It works. Beat a line full of very high dollar Anschutzes, Coopers, etc. Results dont lie.

But if you must argue, call up and Argue it with Carson Lilja.

That is some strange scoring 248/250? what discipline is that

Update: match winner tonite, 248/250, 15x...View attachment 1125428

What RFBR discipline was that? never saw scoring like that 248/250?

 

[garandman]

That is some strange scoring 248/250? what discipline is that


What RFBR discipline was that? never saw scoring like that 248/250?

Dont know. Im fairly new to competition. The scoring was done by a guy who's been doing this for 30 plus years. What does it matter? The point here is how you achieve accuracy in a 22rf. Via ammo velocity and headspace, just like Carson Lilja said.

And given the target his gun produced… even though I didn't shoot up to its potential, I duffed several shots, and am getting used to a new reticle … how it beat a half dozen Anscutzes and other match rimfire guns... I'm gonna go with what he said rather than what what you say.

It's nothing personal. Don't take it that way. If you are happy and successful doing things your way, that's all that matters. And I'm not asking you to believe my way of getting 22 rim fire accuracy.

But for people to come on here and tell me I am wrong with the targets that this gun is regularly producing… I don't have to believe them either

 

[garandman]

As far is last night's competition…

There are 25 bull's eyes with a maximum 10 target points each bull's eye. That totals 250 ... from there you use X count as a secondary method of placing. I think they called it "best edge"... which is a way of making the shooter feel good about himself ... lol

Top 3 for this match all got 248s.... 3rd had 12x and 2nd had 13x.

My other target scored 245 out of 250 with 14 x's... Which was mid pack with that group of competitors.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Dont know. Im fairly new to competition. The scoring was done by a guy who's been doing this for 30 plus years. What does it matter? The point here is how you achieve accuracy in a 22rf. Via ammo velocity and headspace, just like Carson Lilja said.

And given the target his gun produced… even though I didn't shoot up to its potential, I duffed several shots, and am getting used to a new reticle … how it beat a half dozen Anscutzes and other match rimfire guns... I'm gonna go with what he said rather than what what you say.

It's nothing personal. Don't take it that way.

I am not taking it personal, but rather trying to understand his reasoning. and trying to figure how you deepen or shorten the chamber which controls how much bullet engraving occurs, with headspace. you do understand , if you increase headspace you will affect firing pin strike depth also which has an effect on ignition and has a great effect on how a rifle will shoot.
I am currently working on a Falcon action with zero head space, using proven donor barrels. I have to use shims to get the 0.043 head space I am after. now what I am confused about is how is it going to change the depth of the chamber? going by this Carson fella's use of shims
see this reamer spec. chamber depth is 0.600, how can spacing away from the breech face increase or decrease the pre-bored depth.
you understand what I am asking?

Lee

 

[garandman]

I am not taking it personal, but rather trying to understand his reasoning. and trying to figure how you deepen or shorten the chamber which controls how much bullet engraving occurs, with headspace. you do understand , if you increase headspace you will affect firing pin strike depth also which has an effect on ignition and has a great effect on how a rifle will shoot.
I am currently working on a Falcon action with zero head space, using proven donor barrels. I have to use shims to get the 0.043 head space I am after. now what I am confused about is how is it going to change the depth of the chamber? going by this Carson fella's use of shims
see this reamer spec. chamber depth is 0.600, how can spacing away from the breech face increase or decrease the pre-bored depth.
you understand what I am asking?View attachment 1125478

Lee

If you are happy doing things your way ... then I am happy for you. But my targets don't lie.

I can't tell you why head space makes a difference. But I can tell you that it does. I had head spaced my own Lilja barrel on a previous CZ455 & it shot nothing like this .... when Carson set this CZ457 action up.. It flat shoots.

I am not being snarky when I say you'll need to call and talk to Carson to get a better explanation. But Im happy with it.

 

[garandman]

Btw... There is no such thing as 0 head space. Look at the diagram. You have to have some head space in order for the rim of the Round to fit between the chamber and the bolt face.

You at least have to have enough head space for the thickness of rim of the cartridge.

Given that rim thickness is going to vary even in the best of ammo ... you're always going to have a little bit of free play in there as well.

I suspect that is what Carson meant when he talked about adding head space with spacers. The spacers used start at 0.0005.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Btw... There is no such thing as 0 head space. Look at the diagram. You have to have some head space in order for the rim of the Round to fit between the chamber and the bolt face.

You at least have to have enough head space for the thickness of rim of the cartridge.

Given that rim thickness is going to vary even in the best of ammo ... you're always going to have a little bit of free play in there as well.

I suspect that is what Carson meant when he talked about adding head space with spacers. The spacers used start at 0.0005.

This statement above explains that you don't understand my question
Anyway glad your rifle shoots to your expectations
Lee

 

[garandman]

1. There is no such thing as a "zero headspace" (your statement) gun anywhere in the known universe. Your statement suggests that you don't understand what headspace is.

2. Here's my best guess as to why adding spacers / headspace "tunes" accuracy in a CZ 455/457 (see disclaimers below)

Adding a 0.001 spacer to the CZ action increases headspace by 0.001" Thus, when the powder ignites, it pushes the case BACKWARD 0.001" as well as pushing the bullet forward prior to any "engraving." . This is how the CZ 455 / 457 accompishes what we know as "seating depth" in reloading centerfire ammo.... it increases "freebore" - the distance from the chambered unfired projectile to the "lands"

Disclaimers:

a. Its my "best guess" not something I'm gonna argue for, or care whether you agree

b. Its applies ONLY to the CZ455/457 and likely has no bearing whatsoever to your "zero headspace" gun.

But Im happy for you and yer happy for me so.... have a wonderful day.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

1. There is no such thing as a "zero headspace" (your statement) gun anywhere in the known universe. Your statement suggests that you don't understand what headspace is.

2. Here's my best guess as to why adding spacers / headspace "tunes" accuracy in a CZ 455/457 (see disclaimers below)

Adding a 0.001 spacer to the CZ action increases headspace by 0.001" Thus, when the powder ignites, it pushes the case BACKWARD 0.001" as well as pushing the bullet forward prior to any "engraving." . This is how the CZ 455 / 457 accompishes what we know as "seating depth" in reloading centerfire ammo.... it increases "freebore" - the distance from the chambered unfired projectile to the "lands"

Disclaimers:

a. Its my "best guess" not something I'm gonna argue for, or care whether you agree

b. Its applies ONLY to the CZ455/457 and likely has no bearing whatsoever to your "zero headspace" gun.

But Im happy for you and yer happy for me so.... have a wonderful day.

It is real easy to have zero head space when you are using donor barrels done for another action
It happens when the tenon length on the action is shorter than the barrel tenon length in other words barrel will screw in till it touches the bolt face
Get it now

Lee

 

[garandman]

It is real easy to have zero head space when you are using donor barrels done for another action
It happens when the tenon length on the action is shorter than the barrel tenon length in other words barrel will screw in till it touches the bolt face
Get it now

Lee

Have a great day.

 

[Tim s]

It is real easy to have zero head space when you are using donor barrels done for another action
It happens when the tenon length on the action is shorter than the barrel tenon length in other words barrel will screw in till it touches the bolt face
Get it now

Lee

Lee, you can try till you drop, this Mr. Bodacious here is clueless.

 

[garandman]

I dont dignify insults with direct responses.

Thank you, @Hi-NV Shooter for not lowering yourself to using insults.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Lee, you can try till you drop, this Mr. Bodacious here is clueless.

Tim, I really think he misunderstood what Carson Lilja meant or said. but again this same company said max accuracy will peak within 5000 rds. then that is it. I guess this why from what I can remember a Lilja has not won at RFBR for quite some time.

Lee

 

[garandman]

I know what Carson said. And he was right. The 9 targets from last nites match dont lie. Not sure what more proof you need. Beginning to doubt ANY proof will make you quit.