Nightforce Competition FCR-1 reticle on black target

[rdb8847]

Wondering if if the fine reticle crosshair can disappear or be difficult to see on black targets? Especially at ranges of 600-1000. Any input is greatly appreciated

Thanks
Roger

 

[6MMsteve]

if your parallax is not set correctly can cause issues, I think

 

[Pawnee Bill]

I had to quit shooting black bulls eye targets, switched to orange. Old eyes with black reticle on black target bad juju.

 

[memilanuk]

Yes, some reticles absolutely can give your eyes fits.

Long ago and far away, I did pretty well in my first round on the big stage (2nd in FCNC) with (at the time) a nice NF BR scope with the 2DD reticle. For my next scope, I figured 'aim small, miss small', right? So I ordered one with a CH3 reticle, which IIRC was super fine lines, a small gap, and little pin-prick of a dot. Worked super well when doing load workup and practice - on white paper with orange target-spots. First match I took it to was down in Oregon, outside Portland, on a dark/dreary weekend. I'd completely lose the damn reticle no matter how I adjust the parallax, rear diopter, nothing. I'd get on target, and after about 5 seconds, the reticle would just fade away leaving me a beautiful view of the target... and no way to aim at it.

I found that I could work around it - sort of - by focusing on something close. Looking down at my thumb on the stock, on the back of the bolt, the ground beneath the gun, and let my eyes relax - then back up to the scope, aim hold fire, all in about five seconds or less. Not great, but at least I could finish the match. Sent that scope back to get another 2DD reticle when I got home.

Years later, when the US FTR team got the NF Comp scopes, the first one I got (not by choice) was some bastard love child of the CH-3 and what later became the FCR-1. Imagine the FCR-1 with the gap and center dot of the CH-3. F$ck me...

The FCR-1 I actually did okay with, once it showed up. I didn't use the brackets so much for hold offs (I usually use the scoring rings, unless I'm holding off paper!) as much as for times when the mirage was really bad and I had to bracket the frame. Anywho, I find my eyes pretty much need either a bigger center dot, or solid lines going all the way in to the center to keep from 'losing' the reticle. The 2DD? Still works great. The DDR2? Can't use it, too fine/small. The Vortex ECR-1? Can't use it either. The SCR-1? Not my first choice, being a plain reticle with no dot, but with the lines at least I can see them all the way to the center.

I'm thinking my next scope will probably be a March HM... with the 1/8" moa center dot. Everyone else keeps going smaller and smaller, but I just can't see/use them.

As an aside, I do have a pretty heavy prescription (5.50-5.75 diopters), some astigmatism, and this is probably the key, some retinal issues due to diabetes. Pretty sure that's also why I can't see the mirage nearly as well as I used to, no matter what glass I get behind.

 

[Lbart]

For more years than I care to remember I have shot NightForce 12-42x BR & 15-55x Competition scopes in F-Class matches. In my 12-42x I use the NP-R2 reticle & with the 15-55x the FCR-1 reticle. While I think I would prefer a little thicker wire in the 15-55x I have not had any trouble using it. I aim with the center cross-hair intersection and don’t use the other hash marks for anything. FWIW, I’m 82 and wear prescription glasses.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

I had the NP2DD in a NF NXS 12-42X56 and it worked fine at the time (10+ years ago). I changed to a March-X 5-50X56 with the MTR-2 reticle and that worked fine for many years, until it didn't. I send the scope back to March and the swapped the reticle for an MTR-5; same design as the 2 but made for old geezers by having thicker lines and so on. That's what I have in my 10-60X56 HM currently, it's MTR-5 center dot is 1/8MOA at 40X. That scope just got replaced with a Majesta with the MTR-WFD reticle and the center dot is 3/32 MOA at 40X, so a little smaller than the MTR-5's center dot, but it is surrounded by a circle with a radius of 1.0MOA @40x and there are small 0.5 MOA segments inside the circle, pointing to the center dot. It works perfectly for me. My mind's eye is really drawn to the center dot bit all these cues.

@memilanuk If you are the Nationals next month, you are very welcome to look through my scope.

 

[Ranger188]

How good is your vision?
That's the biggest thing you'll hear.
If you have good vision, then should be no problems with a fine reticle or dot.
If you have iffy or degrading vision, then maybe go with a larger dot
or thicker reticles.
I have no problems with my FCR-1 or DDR-2 against a F class target or black steel.
With BR white with blue rings targets, no problems at all.
But I don't wear contacts or glasses.

 

[memilanuk]

If you are the Nationals next month, you are very welcome to look through my scope.

Much appreciated, but I'm still waiting on a new rifle. Probably won't even get to shoot it in a match this year

 

[One Eye Pete]

I traded my nightforce competition with the FCR-1 reticle for a Sightron SV 10-50X60 ED with a MOA-2 reticle. The FCR-1 may be OK for F-class under ideal conditions but that doesn’t always happen. The heavier Sightron reticle works for me in F-class far all conditions. Most of the time I use the center dot but when things get real bad (very heavy mirage)I can bracket with the hash marks. The Sightron has excellent glass, the only downside to it is the weight. I like the nightforce competition and have one with the DDR-2 reticle that I use on one of my other rifles for tactical matches where the target has a lighter color background. I guess what it comes down to is the quality of your vision. My nickname isn’t One Eye Pete because I have two good eyes (and the better one isn’t all that good).

 

[Downeast]

Without stealing this thread, but since we are discussing reticles and being able to see the targets, does anyone make an F class target that is white or blue instead of black? I recall watching a video in the past about a European F Class match that was using a white background with black or blue rings. I'm thinking of switching to BR targets for our local backyard matches.

 

[OMW57]

We sometimes get IBS targets from NATIONALTARGET.COM with red ink, perhaps that might help? Good luck!

 

[One Eye Pete]

I can see why the targets for long range iron sight matches like PALMA have a large black center. At long distances with iron sights you center that ”little black dot” in the sight aperture. But I thought that F-class came about to give shooters, especially older shooters, an alternative to iron sights for long range matches. With the use of high power scopes the big black center is no longer a necessity. The long range benchers guys got it right by using light colors on their long range targets. I wish the NRA would wise up and keep up with the times rather than just concentrating on generating income for their “executive staff” (you know who I mean). I am a lifetime member of the NRA but it’s sad to see that a once great organization has become archaic and ineffective due to poor leadership. (OK I finished my rant, and probably started a firestorm).
Thank goodness for electronic targets because that big black target center can not only make it difficult to see the reticle on the target but it can also make it difficult for an old half blind guy by me to spot hits when working in the pits.
Sorry for getting off topic but I had to rant.

 

[scclimber]

I would imagine the reason for the same size black is so they all look the same from the line. An iron sight shooter between 2 ‘different’ target faces would have an advantage over an iron sight shooter surrounded by the same target faces.

 

[Ned Ludd]

I understand the nature of how/why F-Class targets are designed as they are; F-Class originated as a subdivision of Highpower. However, conventional shooters don't use F-Class target faces, so it would be possible to change the F-Class target to something lighter that would provide better contrast for the scope reticles F-Class shooters actually use, rather than continuing on "as is" via an ancient connection to a discipline that has diverged in some very important ways. This could be done without affecting the Highpower targets in any way.

I have several scopes including an NF Competition that have effectively become unusable for me as my eyes have gotten older and my near vision has degraded. This is solely because of the lack of contrast shooting against the aiming black of the F-Class target face. These reticles are totally visible to me against a lighter and higher contrast background. I think it's pretty ridiculous for F-Class to be forced to use a target face with an aiming black when we use scopes with black reticles, simply because that's the way it has always been done in the past.

 

[memilanuk]

One of the premises of having hospital targets, and keeping all targets in the air until all firing is complete, is to give each and every shooter the same 'presentation', and equal opportunity to do something silly like crossfire. Having separate sling and F target faces would be counter to that basic concept. And unless you think the range/facility is going to magically swap out targets for sling and F-class shooters and/or relays - which would be even more of a PITA now with so many ranges going to e-targets... I don't see a practical way to make it work. As much as it sucks to try and shoot with a high magnification scope on black target center, it's way worse to try and shoot on a light target center with iron sights.

 

[Ned Ludd]

These arguments really don't work. Many ranges don't offer Hospital targets at either end so that every firing lane in use actually has a target presented on both sides. Further, should we really be worrying about providing every shooter with an opportunuty to crossfire? Is that really an important metric? Or should we be more concerned with measuring the skill involved in shooting the best possible score on the correct target? Many F-Class matches don't include Highpower shooters. Even when they do, different target faces are supposed to be used for each, so that should happen anytime both disciplines are shooting no matter what. The ranges I routinely shoot at already use different target faces for each discipline, as they are supposed to do, regardless of whether they're using e-targets. The fact it is, it could be done, and quite easily. All it requires is buying some extra target faces and having a frame or two, or how ever many are needed set up with the alternative target face. It's simply not a big deal.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

And the fun part is we get to restart all national records because of the target face change. Then we have to deal with records being set on new faces and records set on old faces because it may take years for everyone to be using the new faces.

Also, there are venues where sling and F shooters are shooting. It's already a problem with just the proper center, but easily rectified by slapping the proper one. That won't work with different color targets, we get to change the frame and that's more complicated.

I am not against changing the color, but there are more ramifications than you think.

 

[Ned Ludd]

And the fun part is we get to restart all national records because of the target face change. Then we have to deal with records being set on new faces and records set on old faces because it may take years for everyone to be using the new faces.

Also, there are venues where sling and F shooters are shooting. It's already a problem with just the proper center, but easily rectified by slapping the proper one. That won't work with different color targets, we get to change the frame and that's more complicated.

I am not against changing the color, but there are more ramifications than you think.

Not really. There are two target faces in use right now. There would be two target faces in use if the the F-Class target face was a different color. That's two target faces no matter how you slice it. Many supported the notion that a new and separate group of records should be kept due to e-targets. That didn't happen, and nothing would need to happen with a new F-Class targets that differered only in the background color. Some people go out of their way to make things more difficult than they need to be, often as an excuse so they don't have to change anything. That is one of the reasons why we have certain rules in F-Class that everyone knows should be changed, but they haven't been. It's way past time for F-Class shooters to start doing what is best for F-Class shooters and stop worrying about what the Highpower shooters think. Highpower is dying.

 

[6MMsteve]

Much appreciated, but I'm still waiting on a new rifle. Probably won't even get to shoot it in a match this year

vision or the right specs, makes a big diff, I use a pair of 25 yr old single vision safety glasses they work perfect for scopes, but nothing else

 

[ChrisNZ]

One of the premises of having hospital targets, and keeping all targets in the air until all firing is complete, is to give each and every shooter the same 'presentation', and equal opportunity to do something silly like crossfire. Having separate sling and F target faces would be counter to that basic concept. And unless you think the range/facility is going to magically swap out targets for sling and F-class shooters and/or relays - which would be even more of a PITA now with so many ranges going to e-targets... I don't see a practical way to make it work. As much as it sucks to try and shoot with a high magnification scope on black target center, it's way worse to try and shoot on a light target center with iron sights.

Well there is a compromise situation we often run here at club or regional level but not the Nationals. That is to have a ~1/3 MOA white square sitting ~ 2 MOA above the centre. It's invisible to sling shooters but gives the F boys something more definitive to shoot at. The original reason for putting it there was to still have a visible aiming point when the guts had been shot out of the target.