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Newer Powders (like TS 15.5) in .308 Heavy Bullet Loads?

As Ned mentioned a longer barrel as in 32 inch will help immensely in your quest Sir.
Or stick with the Juggs and push them harder as it may also work well for you.
Just a thought.! I have them on occasion.
Though I recognize that a longer barrel is one path to the stated objective, I have not built, and do not intend to build, a rifle for the single purpose of FTR. An 18 lb rifle with a 30 to 32 inch barrel holds no interest for me. One of the reasons I take issue with the selection of the more traditional powders is the barrel length required to make such combinations work.

The base premise of this thread is that better technology is coming into existence and I am seeking to apply it. I am not questioning the overall validity of known formulas for success. Rather, I believe components are becoming available that represent a better fit for my own purposes. When I started the thread, I was seeking information from others who may have been down this path. So far, it doesn't appear that much exploration of this has been done. Given that as a starting point, I will move along with my thought process and share what I learn along the way.

We will see what, if anything, there is to be learned...
 
Viht has reformulated the entire N500 series in recent years to reduce temperature effects. How good that makes them vs others in this respect, I can't say, but their reputation may now be unwarranted.
I was not aware that such changes had been made. I am confident that N550 will take me to my goal. N560 may also do so, if it fits in the case. Given that I live in AZ, I am most certainly in a position to test in temperature extremes. It would appear that I may be well advised to reserve judgement on N550 and N560.

Thank you!
 
Benchracer,

If you have some H4895 available to you it might be worth trying as well if you enjoy testing/experimenting. With the shorter barrel length you have it wouldn't hurt to try. I had a super load at one point in one of my FTR barrels with 200 gr hybrids and H4895 in Lapua Palma brass and Fed 205M primers. That was in a 30 inch 11 twist 5R barrel. That burn rate defies what most people think would work well with 200s in 30-32 inch barrels being its faster burning than Varget/N150 etc but it shot extremely accurate/consistent at 2685 ftps. In load testing at 300 yards off the bench that load shot 5 shot groups under an inch consistently and had very tight vertical at 600 and 1000 yards. I think it would work well in your 26 inch barrel. Just a thought.

Varget in that same barrel shot just as accurate but ran 20 ftps slower at accuracy node. Just FYI
Your observations are consistent with predicted data in my rifle. H4895 shows a predicted node @ 2620ish from my 26 inch barrel. Have to stand on the throttle to get there, though. That would be my only concern.

Other than that, I believe you are correct.
 
I am confident that N550 will take me to my goal. N560 may also do so, if it fits in the case.

N550 is proven to work very well in this set-up, but most UK FTR shooters use N150 as it provides almost as good MVs, is very consistent, and ignites very well in small primer Lapua brass.

I ran the 185 Juggernaut in its early days in large primer Lapua very successfully with N550, and one of our top FTR shooters ran 210gn Berger BTs over N550 very successfully indeed and with barrel life no worse than those using single-based powders from the beginning of the class until he retired from prone rifle shooting about four years ago. This encompassed both large and small primer Lapua brass. I can't remember his MVs, but they were high, though not startlingly so, for 210s (32-inch barrel). Despite being told he would have no end of pressure problems with N550 and heat, he shot the entire program with his UK load over the US F-Class Nationals and World Cup events at Raton in August 2013 in what we were told were high temperatures for the area that year. That included participating in a four-shooter 'Rutland' team in both events as well as the individual matches, and his rifle was used by a second shooter too, so the round count was extremely high.

N560 is a very slow burner indeed - much 'slower' than its N160 base version and IMO, also 'slower' than H4831. It is much 'slower' than N550 - burn-rate charts IME/IMO put N150/550 as far too 'slow', and N560 too 'quick'. Having used N560 for some 20 or so years in cartridges with much higher case capacity to bore area ratios than the 308, my experience is that it needs to achieve high pressures before it performs - which you've no chance of producing in 308. I look forward to seeing your results, but would be very surprised if you get satisfactory MVs and consistency.

As an add-on, we (and the Australians and Canadians) have a prone 308 Win discipline that has no US equivalent - Match Rifle. This is in rifle specs and shooting regulations like a half-way house between 'Target Rifle' (Fullbore / Palma to you) and FTR, long predating the latter. Any sights are allowed but various changes include a 5.5lb maximum barrel weight. MR runs very long barrels chambered with vast amounts of freebore and heavy bullets. As the three stages are 1,000/1,100/1,200 yards in an MR match, (up to 1,500 yards on one Australian range), MV + elevation consistency are their gods. (They use standard NRA / ICFRA TR targets, not the half-diameter F-Class targets.) They're a secretive bunch re their loads but are notorious for innovation and trying every powder / bullet combination that might work, often pushing pressures to the limits. I've never heard a hint that any use N560, but 550 was common at one time. Rumour has it that Alliant Re17 / Nitrochemie Reload Swiss RS60 is their favoured fuel these days and I've been quoted some 'interesting' loads and impressive MVs. This is a known temperature-affected powder as previously noted, but we can usually 'get away with it' in the British Isles. Whether the Aussies, (who see AZ type temperatures), do so is a moot point, unlikely I would think!
 
N550 is proven to work very well in this set-up, but most UK FTR shooters use N150 as it provides almost as good MVs, is very consistent, and ignites very well in small primer Lapua brass.

I ran the 185 Juggernaut in its early days in large primer Lapua very successfully with N550, and one of our top FTR shooters ran 210gn Berger BTs over N550 very successfully indeed and with barrel life no worse than those using single-based powders from the beginning of the class until he retired from prone rifle shooting about four years ago. This encompassed both large and small primer Lapua brass. I can't remember his MVs, but they were high, though not startlingly so, for 210s (32-inch barrel). Despite being told he would have no end of pressure problems with N550 and heat, he shot the entire program with his UK load over the US F-Class Nationals and World Cup events at Raton in August 2013 in what we were told were high temperatures for the area that year. That included participating in a four-shooter 'Rutland' team in both events as well as the individual matches, and his rifle was used by a second shooter too, so the round count was extremely high.

N560 is a very slow burner indeed - much 'slower' than its N160 base version and IMO, also 'slower' than H4831. It is much 'slower' than N550 - burn-rate charts IME/IMO put N150/550 as far too 'slow', and N560 too 'quick'. Having used N560 for some 20 or so years in cartridges with much higher case capacity to bore area ratios than the 308, my experience is that it needs to achieve high pressures before it performs - which you've no chance of producing in 308. I look forward to seeing your results, but would be very surprised if you get satisfactory MVs and consistency.

As an add-on, we (and the Australians and Canadians) have a prone 308 Win discipline that has no US equivalent - Match Rifle. This is in rifle specs and shooting regulations like a half-way house between 'Target Rifle' (Fullbore / Palma to you) and FTR, long predating the latter. Any sights are allowed but various changes include a 5.5lb maximum barrel weight. MR runs very long barrels chambered with vast amounts of freebore and heavy bullets. As the three stages are 1,000/1,100/1,200 yards in an MR match, (up to 1,500 yards on one Australian range), MV + elevation consistency are their gods. (They use standard NRA / ICFRA TR targets, not the half-diameter F-Class targets.) They're a secretive bunch re their loads but are notorious for innovation and trying every powder / bullet combination that might work, often pushing pressures to the limits. I've never heard a hint that any use N560, but 550 was common at one time. Rumour has it that Alliant Re17 / Nitrochemie Reload Swiss RS60 is their favoured fuel these days and I've been quoted some 'interesting' loads and impressive MVs. This is a known temperature-affected powder as previously noted, but we can usually 'get away with it' in the British Isles. Whether the Aussies, (who see AZ type temperatures), do so is a moot point, unlikely I would think!
My new barrel was chambered with the 2013 FTR reamer. Initial testing with the 200.20X shows that this bullet likes to be run at an OAL of 3.120". This gives me a little more case capacity to work with, so it may allow a bit more flexibility in powder choice. I won't know until I have a chance to get some baseline velocity testing done.

Based on my measurements, N550 will most certainly work. Where N560 is concerned, my best guess is that I can get between 53 and 54 grains of it in the case before powder compression becomes excessive. I am curious to see whether or not that would be enough to do something useful. QL predicts a gain of only about 10 fps over N550, but predicted pressure is about 3k psi lower. I am new to VV powders, so I don't have experience to tell me how well QL models them. Real world numbers will answer my questions.

I have worked extensively with RL-17 in a variety of applications. In hunting applications, where shot strings are short and the barrel can be kept cool, it is one of my favorite powders. I have found it to deliver an outstanding combination of accuracy and velocity. I have made it a practice to develop loads with RL-17 in hot weather, which seems to have kept me out of trouble.

Back in 2013, I attempted to use RL-17 with Berger 185 Classic Hunters in the very first FTR format match I attended and immediately ran into issues that made me uncomfortable with its use in that application. Everything was fine until my barrel started to heat up. Once I had some barrel heat going, I started to get hard bolt lift, sticky extraction, and occasional ejector marks. On target performance did not change discernably, and I was able to shoot to the limits of my skill level for the entire match, but I discontinued use of that load for match purposes.

Thank you, Laurie, for your insights!
 
QL predicts a gain of only about 10 fps over N550, but predicted pressure is about 3k psi lower. I am new to VV powders, so I don't have experience to tell me how well QL models them. Real world numbers will answer my questions.

See the following feature I wrote re N550/555/560/565 in a long-throat 260 Rem rifle. (N550 is towards the end of the piece headed up 'Bonus 4th')

http://www.targetshooter.co.uk/?p=3483

Actual MV, therefore pressure, was well down on the QL model's predictions for N560, whilst N550 went the other way with much higher actuals, so be VERY wary of QL results for N550 if using the default powder values.

Here again for N550 as a possible H4350 replacement, tested in a long-throat 7mm-08 F-Class rifle where QL overstated loads by c.1.5gn and underestimated pressure by c.6,000 psi.

http://www.targetshooter.co.uk/?p=3657


................ and yet again, N550 as an H. VarGet alternative in a long-throat 223 F-Class rifle with the 77gn SMK. where actual MV for my top load ran at over 100 fps higher than the QL estimate.


http://www.targetshooter.co.uk/?p=3856
 
See the following feature I wrote re N550/555/560/565 in a long-throat 260 Rem rifle. (N550 is towards the end of the piece headed up 'Bonus 4th')

http://www.targetshooter.co.uk/?p=3483

Actual MV, therefore pressure, was well down on the QL model's predictions for N560, whilst N550 went the other way with much higher actuals, so be VERY wary of QL results for N550 if using the default powder values.

Here again for N550 as a possible H4350 replacement, tested in a long-throat 7mm-08 F-Class rifle where QL overstated loads by c.1.5gn and underestimated pressure by c.6,000 psi.

http://www.targetshooter.co.uk/?p=3657


................ and yet again, N550 as an H. VarGet alternative in a long-throat 223 F-Class rifle with the 77gn SMK. where actual MV for my top load ran at over 100 fps higher than the QL estimate.


http://www.targetshooter.co.uk/?p=3856
Great information! All three of those links were useful in providing information on the powders I am considering. Thank you!!

Over the years, I have found QL to be a valuable tool, but it still requires real world inputs to provide accurate, CORRECTED data. It can be very useful in selecting components for testing, but real world data is still required to make it all work. Your articles do a good job of reflecting that reality (a reality that seems to be lost on many).
 
Quick Update: Initial seating depth testing with the new barrel is showing promise. The 200.20X is shooting well and the 200 Hybrid shows a very wide preferred seating depth window of about .020". I was calling it the Honey Badger Bullet at the range (because it just doesn't seem to care).

Life is interfering with further testing. It may be several months before I can continue. I will take advantage of the time to try to get my hands on Alliant TS 15.5 for testing. Will provide updates when I am able to resume testing.
 
Quick Update: Initial seating depth testing with the new barrel is showing promise. The 200.20X is shooting well and the 200 Hybrid shows a very wide preferred seating depth window of about .020". I was calling it the Honey Badger Bullet at the range (because it just doesn't seem to care).

Life is interfering with further testing. It may be several months before I can continue. I will take advantage of the time to try to get my hands on Alliant TS 15.5 for testing. Will provide updates when I am able to resume testing.
:p:p:p perfect name for the 200 Hybrids!
 
Quick Update: Initial seating depth testing with the new barrel is showing promise. The 200.20X is shooting well and the 200 Hybrid shows a very wide preferred seating depth window of about .020". I was calling it the Honey Badger Bullet at the range (because it just doesn't seem to care).

Life is interfering with further testing. It may be several months before I can continue. I will take advantage of the time to try to get my hands on Alliant TS 15.5 for testing. Will provide updates when I am able to resume testing.
Quick Update Part Deaux: Finally got some logistical problems out of the way.

1. My early model Magnetospeed crapped out about the time I started all of this. Replaced it with the latest and greatest Magnetospeed.

2. Installed the latest update for QL, which is pretty interesting. The READ ME file stated that corrections had been made to some of the VV powder burn rates. QL now lists VV N550 as a Temp Stable powder, which gives additional creedence to some of the information presented by Laurie.

3. Managed to lay hands on some Alliant TS 15.5.

Had just enough time to do some baseline velocity testing with the 200.20x @ 3.120 OAL. Loaded 5 rounds each with TS 15.5, RL16, and N555.

TS 15.5: 44.0 grains averaged 2599 from my 26" barrel. To my surprise, QL shows this as very near a max load. Good velocity, but can't reach the node I am looking for. I think I am really going to like this powder, but not for this application.

RL16: This powder has some serious muscle, but it is just too bulky to work in this application. If I had just a little more case capacity available, this powder could do some amazing things.

N555: I was surprised to learn that this powder might give me exactly what I am searching for. I was expecting it to be too bulky. Turns out, it may be dense enough to work. It will yield the velocity I am looking for and it fits in the case. Predicted pressures are in the low to mid 50k's. Remains to be seen if it will burn cleanly and shoot accurately in this application.

Still to be tested for comparison and in search of alternative component combinations:

VARGET
VV N150
VV N550

Berger 200 Hybrid
Hornady 208 ELDM
 

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