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Newer Powders (like TS 15.5) in .308 Heavy Bullet Loads?

N150 really works well for me with the heavies in a 308 Win and H4895 if you can find some.
Give the Vihtavuori a shot, I think you'll like it.
Sandstorm and XTR, I appreciate your feedback and your effort to provide useful answers to my question. XTR, it appears you may have attempted the same rabbit hole I plan to explore and that it did not end in satisfactory results. I can sense some frustration in your answers and I appreciate that you took the time to respond thoughtfully, even though you may disagree with some of my base premises.

Starting with N150, I am going to test several VV powders. I have never really worked with VV powders in the past, but have had the interest for a long time. In the past, it seemed VV powders were much more expensive and availability was spotty compared to other lines of powders. That balance has changed dramatically in the last few years. Cost is not much different and availability seems much better than it once was. These days, at least, no worse than anything else.

Anyway, seems like a logical place to start while I wait for TS 15.5 to become available (incidentally, TS 15.5 is more expensive than the VV powders by about $5 a pound). If I find something I like, I might even try to trade my VARGET to get more.
 
I'm not a long range shooter; 500 years is very long range to me.

Nevertheless, Benchracer brings up some good points, areas where I have had a little experience. First regarding Varget... a good powder certainly, for some uses, but I've found with the .308, regardless of bullet weight, H4895 generally works better and will often provide better accuracy. I think much of Varget's popularity has been with shooters that hear Varget works well, they try it, and don't go any farther.

As for the Remington 700 VS .308... I bought one of these new about thirty years ago. It's been primarily a cast bullet rifle, but it will shoot jacketed bullets very well, too. I've been using it straight-out-of-box since purchase with no molesting or parts change outs except for a scope. The 700 VS has probably been the most accurate production rifle I've owned since the mid-'60s.
Yup. I bought my 700 VS at a time when the Remington 700's were widely spoken of as the most accurate out-of-the-box rifle. A LOT has changed since then! My 700 VS certainly lived up to that reputation.

At the time I bought it, the various 168 grain Match loads were still regarded by many to be the go to factory ammo. I tested Black Hills Moly 168's and Black Hills Moly 175's side by side with FGMM 168's and 175's. To my surprise, my rifle showed a distinct preference for the 175's (for which I had been told the 12 twist was unsuited), with the Black Hills ammo very slightly edging out the FGMM. With the Black Hills Moly 175's, my 700 VS would consistently put three shots into .3" @ 100 yards, which surprised me because I didn't think I could shoot that well.

I put a friend of mine (of about the same experience level, ergo, not much) behind the rifle and it did the same thing.

I have never had another factory rifle do that with factory ammunition. I came away feeling like I had made a good choice with that rifle.
 
Pay no attention to the burn rate charts for N150, they are wrong. That’s why I It would work with 215s back in about ‘14. Turns out it’s not substan different from Varget, you need a bit more but not a lot. It is bulkier and the lot to lot consistency has been great.
 
That answers some questions I had in mind. With my factory barrel, I was running 185's around 2.9 OAL. I am thinking that running OAL closer to 3.1 should give me a little extra case capacity to work with. Curious to see what that lets me do.
 
Benchracer, I read through your responses and the responses of other really good experienced shooters.

Here's my take on the 200 gr bullet range in .308 for FTR and powders that I've shot in high level competition. I shot a ton of H4895, Varget, N150 over the years with 200 hybrids, 200.20X, and 210 JLKs. All 3 powders work equally well. H4895 burns a tad faster using less powder and runs higher pressure but is accurate. Varget and N150 are very similar in burn rate regardless of what burn charts say. Same speed nodes are within 1/2 grain powder charge. You mentioned in one of your responses that Varget was "mediocre" for heavy bullets. That's not my experience and other high level shooters at all. Varget is excellent with 200s. I won multiple state championships at 1000 yards using Varget in FTR. When I won the FTR national championship in 2019 I was using N150 but that same barrel shot every bit as good at the same speed node with Varget (2640 ftps) with 30 inch barrel. Only reason I used N150 for that match was Vihtavouri was offering $1000 to the winner if shot with their powder. Could have easily shot Varget for that match. Best load I've ever had in any one of my FTR guns was 210 JLKs with Varget running 2640 ftps in 32 inch Bartlein barrel. Shot 200-13X at 1000 in Phoenix and it wasn't dead calm. That load was an absolute lazer so trust me when I say Varget is not too fast burning for 200 gr bullets. Its as temp stable as they come as well. Good luck.
 
I recently decided to modernize a late 90's production Remington 700 VS in .308 Winchester. I had the new barrel set up to run the Berger 200.20X (chambered with the FTR reamer) and went with a Baney box to accommodate up to 3.1 OAL. I have Peterson SRP brass for the new barrel. Bullets I intend to run include Berger 185 Juggernaut, Berger 200 Hybrid, Berger 200.20X, Berger 208 LRHT, and Hornady 208 ELDM.

As for powder, I currently have a modest quantity of VARGET, which is what I will use for the time being. I know VARGET is a popular powder for .308, but I believe it to be sub-optimal for heavy bullets. My sense is that powder technology has lagged behind bullet development for the .308 Winchester, especially with heavy bullets. In the 150 to 175 weight range, at 2.8 OAL, I have found newer powders like 8208 XBR and AR-COMP really shine.

With bullets from about 185 to 200+ grains @ 3.1ish OAL's, it seems to me that powders in the 4350 burn rate range (with the right density to fit in a .308 case) would be a better match for the application than VARGET. Some powders fitting that description are finally beginning to appear. Staball 6.5 seems like it could be a good candidate. Some of the Vihtavuori powders seem worth investigating. Based on published data, TS 15.5 looks like it could be the answer I am looking for. I will have to wait until I can get my hands on some in order to find out.

For anyone who has used the newer powders, with heavy bullets in .308, what has been your experience?
Haven't seen RL15 mentioned here. It's a fantastic powder for running the 185-210 bullets. I ran it using the 185s with the best results of any other powder I tried. Velocity and accuracy both with superior to others. This has been 12-15 years ago so I'm sure other powders could be better options today. It's worth a look.
 
Haven't seen RL15 mentioned here. It's a fantastic powder for running the 185-210 bullets. I ran it using the 185s with the best results of any other powder I tried. Velocity and accuracy both with superior to others. This has been 12-15 years ago so I'm sure other powders could be better options today. It's worth a look.
Re15 has been noted many times for its precision and that it shot tight groups, and at least as many times for it’s temperature sensitivity. It will work, but maybe not every day
 
Re15 has been noted many times for its precision and that it shot tight groups, and at least as many times for it’s temperature sensitivity. It will work, but maybe not every day
I've only had experience with it on hunts. Never a temp issue there of course. I'd imagine it would matter in .01-.05" groups but not for minute of Deer groups.
 
Benchracer, I read through your responses and the responses of other really good experienced shooters.

Here's my take on the 200 gr bullet range in .308 for FTR and powders that I've shot in high level competition. I shot a ton of H4895, Varget, N150 over the years with 200 hybrids, 200.20X, and 210 JLKs. All 3 powders work equally well. H4895 burns a tad faster using less powder and runs higher pressure but is accurate. Varget and N150 are very similar in burn rate regardless of what burn charts say. Same speed nodes are within 1/2 grain powder charge. You mentioned in one of your responses that Varget was "mediocre" for heavy bullets. That's not my experience and other high level shooters at all. Varget is excellent with 200s. I won multiple state championships at 1000 yards using Varget in FTR. When I won the FTR national championship in 2019 I was using N150 but that same barrel shot every bit as good at the same speed node with Varget (2640 ftps) with 30 inch barrel. Only reason I used N150 for that match was Vihtavouri was offering $1000 to the winner if shot with their powder. Could have easily shot Varget for that match. Best load I've ever had in any one of my FTR guns was 210 JLKs with Varget running 2640 ftps in 32 inch Bartlein barrel. Shot 200-13X at 1000 in Phoenix and it wasn't dead calm. That load was an absolute lazer so trust me when I say Varget is not too fast burning for 200 gr bullets. Its as temp stable as they come as well. Good luck.
This. Listen to this guy. He speaks the truth.
 
I have used 15.5 in a long throat 223 with 85.5gr Bergers. It got crunchy around 25.8grs and did not show pressure. I do not think you could fit enough to show pressure in a 223 case. This load was roughly 50 fps slower than 25.5gr Varget but also less pressure. Very Accurate. I need to test more.
 
View attachment 1459125

Judging by Alliant's data,.. TS-15.5 is roughly 1 gr less than Varget or close to Varget. Closer to IMR 4064 amd AA-4064.
I would say from those numbers that it would appear that 1-2 gr more TS 15.5 would be required on a weight basis as compared to Varget. For example, I don't believe anyone would attempt to load 45.4 gr of Varget under a Juggernaut seated at 2.800 COL, or 44.1 gr Varget under a 200 Hybrid seated at 2.800 COL. Those would be unsafe and potentially dangerous loads. I'm not even sure you could actually get that much Varget into a case with those bullets seated at 2.800 COL.

The relative bulk density of a powder such TS 15.5 will play some factor in its use. Typical Varget loads used by F-TR shooters with 200s will often run at around 100% fill ratio, +/- perhaps 1-2% or so. If TS 15.5 really requires 1-2 gr greater charge weight than Varget to achieve a comparable velocity, that would suggest to me that it has a density (and shape) that will allow more powder to be put into the case as compared with something like Varget. Otherwise, one might run into compressed loads trying to achieve comparable velocity when having to use more TS 15.5 as compared to some other powder.

The bottom line is that there is nothing wrong with testing new components. Nothing at all. Many of us do that in the [continual] quest for some kind of improvement or advantage. But for those of us that occasionally delved deep down into the rabbit hole, there needs to be a good reason to pursue/test some new component, and there needs to be some definable and obvious advantage in order to make a permanent switch. If some new component ends up performing just a little better or about the same as what one was using previously, what's the point in switching? Then you would have to spend more money and learn all the subtleties of using the new component all over again for little real gain. Lastly, the general availability of a new component is also an important consideration, especially in today's reloading component market. If a new component seems to provide some clear benefit, that benefit will largely be lost if one can't ever find the component in stock for purchase on a regular basis.

Over the last few years, another example of this exact question has been illustrated by F-TR shooters that made the switch from Varget or something similar to Vihtavuori N150. According to the burn rate charts, N150 has a slightly slower burn rate than Varget, and it seems to require about 1 gr or so greater charge weight to hit a given velocity. I have seen it used with great success by a number of F-TR shooters, so it definitely works. But the real question is whether N150 is that much better than Varget? My guess is that they're pretty close in many people's hands. In other words, one is probably not "head and shoulders" above the other, and excellent (winning) results can be obtained with either one. I have recently been using some heavier (200+ gr) 30 cal bullets. It seemed like a no-brainer to test some N150 with these bullets. The reasoning or hypothesis would be that if N150 really has a burn rate slightly slower than Varget, it might be a better choice for heavier bullets. So I just purchased a couple pounds of N150 with the intention of testing it with the heavier bullets. Although I haven't started just yet, my readouts for those tests will be precision, velocity, and velocity ES/SD. I expect there will be a definitive answer to the original hypothesis. In other words, N150 will either prove to be a better choice than Varget, or it will largely be about the same. My testing should reveal which of those possibilities will turn out to be reality, in my hands, at least. If the N150 performs about the same as Varget, IMO there would be no good reason to switch and I will be out the cost of a couple pounds of N150; i.e. no big deal. On the other hand, if it really shines, I will consider switching to N150 for use with .30 cal heavies and start looking to pick up a few 8-pounders.

If one thinks some new component might be of benefit, making a query at at online shooting forum as the OP did is a good place to start. If there appears to be only limited information, it may be necessary to simply test it themselves. In that event, understand that the reason(s) for doing the tests are largely that you're looking for something better than you already have, not just different. Then make a fair evaluation of the results to answer the question. It usually doesn't take a lot of some new component to make a fair evaluation. That way, you're not out a lot of $$$ if it doesn't turn out to be better.
 
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Was finally able to get my first shots down range from my new barrel this weekend. Just started gathering data. Initial results with the 200.20X and the 200 Hybrid indicate probable tune @ 2575 and 2566, respectively, from a 26" barrel with VARGET and Peterson SRP brass. Peterson SRP brass is averaging 55.7 grains capacity after first firing.

Powders on deck to test include:

N150
N550
N555
N560

I have some RL-16 on hand. I believe it is too bulky to work, but I intend to test for the sake of curiosity. I am keeping an eye out for TS15.5 and intend to test it when I can get my hands on it. I am searching for a combination that would yield a stable tune in the mid-2600's from a 26" barrel. I fully realize that N550 and N560 are not temp stable powders. I am testing them primarily to get an idea of the ideal combination of burn rate, energy content, and bulk density for the available case capacity. My initial measurements indicate N555 is borderline, in terms of density. Not sure yet if it will fit in the case and yield the velocity I am looking for.

Will provide updates as I learn more...
 
Was finally able to get my first shots down range from my new barrel this weekend. Just started gathering data. Initial results with the 200.20X and the 200 Hybrid indicate probable tune @ 2575 and 2566, respectively, from a 26" barrel with VARGET and Peterson SRP brass. Peterson SRP brass is averaging 55.7 grains capacity after first firing.

Powders on deck to test include:

N150
N550
N555
N560

I have some RL-16 on hand. I believe it is too bulky to work, but I intend to test for the sake of curiosity. I am keeping an eye out for TS15.5 and intend to test it when I can get my hands on it. I am searching for a combination that would yield a stable tune in the mid-2600's from a 26" barrel. I fully realize that N550 and N560 are not temp stable powders. I am testing them primarily to get an idea of the ideal combination of burn rate, energy content, and bulk density for the available case capacity. My initial measurements indicate N555 is borderline, in terms of density. Not sure yet if it will fit in the case and yield the velocity I am looking for.

Will provide updates as I learn more...
Be cautious/safe. Mid 2600s is the region of velocity many F-TR shooters are obtaining from 30" barrels. I understand you might get a bit more velocity with the 500 series powders, but temperature-stability is the other side of that coin as you noted. In the past, I have on occasion observed a couple fellow F-TR shooters obtain almost unbelievable velocities with heavy bullets using powders such as RL17 or PowerPro 2000MR. Unfortunately, they would often blow primers and ultimately have to stop shooting when the temperature came up in the 2nd or 3rd match of the day, because they had worked the loads up when it was cooler. I think it's possible to avoid this when using such powders, but it will take effort and rigorous attention to temperature and velocity during load workup/testing, and later to the predicted temperatures throughout the shooting/match days.

If you haven't already done this yourself, take a look at the predicted difference in windage for the 200.20X bullet at 2575 fps and 2650 fps velocity using a generic set of atmospheric inputs:

2575 fps.png


2650 fps.png

My point is simply that there is a predicted difference in wind deflection (full value 10 mph wind) for these two different velocities of only 0.1 MOA at 600 yd, and 0.3 MOA at 1000 yd. In other words, the difference that a 75 fps increase in velocity makes is rather small. To be sure, it's not zero, but it's not huge, either. For only a 0.1 MOA difference at 600 yd, I'd be more concerned about any possible difference in precision between the two loads as opposed to getting just a tick more velocity. If the 200.20Xs indeed tune in at ~2575 fps, it may be that having the better tune ends up worth more than the extra ~75 fps velocity. In any event, best of luck with the testing, I hope you find what you're after.
 
Be cautious/safe. Mid 2600s is the region of velocity many F-TR shooters are obtaining from 30" barrels. I understand you might get a bit more velocity with the 500 series powders, but temperature-stability is the other side of that coin as you noted. In the past, I have on occasion observed a couple fellow F-TR shooters obtain almost unbelievable velocities with heavy bullets using powders such as RL17 or PowerPro 2000MR. Unfortunately, they would often blow primers and ultimately have to stop shooting when the temperature came up in the 2nd or 3rd match of the day, because they had worked the loads up when it was cooler. I think it's possible to avoid this when using such powders, but it will take effort and rigorous attention to temperature and velocity during load workup/testing, and later to the predicted temperatures throughout the shooting/match days.

If you haven't already done this yourself, take a look at the predicted difference in windage for the 200.20X bullet at 2575 fps and 2650 fps velocity using a generic set of atmospheric inputs:

View attachment 1460888


View attachment 1460889

My point is simply that there is a predicted difference in wind deflection (full value 10 mph wind) for these two different velocities of only 0.1 MOA at 600 yd, and 0.3 MOA at 1000 yd. In other words, the difference that a 75 fps increase in velocity makes is rather small. To be sure, it's not zero, but it's not huge, either. For only a 0.1 MOA difference at 600 yd, I'd be more concerned about any possible difference in precision between the two loads as opposed to getting just a tick more velocity. If the 200.20Xs indeed tune in at ~2575 fps, it may be that having the better tune ends up worth more than the extra ~75 fps velocity. In any event, best of luck with the testing, I hope you find what you're after.
I agree 100% with what you have stated here. I had already run the numbers in JBM and agree with what you have to say about that.

As for powders like RL-17, in particular, I like it very much in applications that don't involve long strings of fire. For the reasons you mention, I am not considering its use in this case. I also don't intend to adopt N550 or N560 for this application, regardless of performance obtained from them. But, they are useful in defining the bounds of obtainable performance. N555 is a temp stable powder. If, for example, N550 gives me what I am looking for, and if N555 yields similar performance AND fits in the case, that could prove to be the way to go.

If my search for a better performing powder comes to nothing, I can live with VARGET @ 2575. But, I don't see the sense in leaving performance on the table if it can reasonably be had. In the meantime, I have a fair quantity of VARGET to burn through. There is no urgency in deciding what powder to purchase next. I have the luxury of time to test and decide. In times like these, that is no small thing. If I DO find what I am looking for, so much the better.
 
As Ned mentioned a longer barrel as in 32 inch will help immensely in your quest Sir.
Or stick with the Juggs and push them harder as it may also work well for you.
Just a thought.! I have them on occasion.
 
I agree 100% with what you have stated here. I had already run the numbers in JBM and agree with what you have to say about that.

As for powders like RL-17, in particular, I like it very much in applications that don't involve long strings of fire. For the reasons you mention, I am not considering its use in this case. I also don't intend to adopt N550 or N560 for this application, regardless of performance obtained from them. But, they are useful in defining the bounds of obtainable performance. N555 is a temp stable powder. If, for example, N550 gives me what I am looking for, and if N555 yields similar performance AND fits in the case, that could prove to be the way to go.

If my search for a better performing powder comes to nothing, I can live with VARGET @ 2575. But, I don't see the sense in leaving performance on the table if it can reasonably be had. In the meantime, I have a fair quantity of VARGET to burn through. There is no urgency in deciding what powder to purchase next. I have the luxury of time to test and decide. In times like these, that is no small thing. If I DO find what I am looking for, so much the better.
I'm usually of the same mind. Even though I know the difference in windage is typically small, I hate leaving velocity on the table, just as long as the precision at the higher velocity is equally good. The one caveat to all this is that apparently powder manufacturers are apparewntly getting much better with the coatings and such they use to regulate burn rate and thermal sensitivity. I have heard some anecdotal evidence that some of the newer [tecnically] double base offerings have extremely low temperature-sensitivity. Maybe eventually we will all be able to reap the benefit of higher velocity without the caveat of extreme temperature-sensitivity as the newer powders improve.
 
Viht has reformulated the entire N500 series in recent years to reduce temperature effects. How good that makes them vs others in this respect, I can't say, but their reputation may now be unwarranted.
 
Benchracer,

If you have some H4895 available to you it might be worth trying as well if you enjoy testing/experimenting. With the shorter barrel length you have it wouldn't hurt to try. I had a super load at one point in one of my FTR barrels with 200 gr hybrids and H4895 in Lapua Palma brass and Fed 205M primers. That was in a 30 inch 11 twist 5R barrel. That burn rate defies what most people think would work well with 200s in 30-32 inch barrels being its faster burning than Varget/N150 etc but it shot extremely accurate/consistent at 2685 ftps. In load testing at 300 yards off the bench that load shot 5 shot groups under an inch consistently and had very tight vertical at 600 and 1000 yards. I think it would work well in your 26 inch barrel. Just a thought.

Varget in that same barrel shot just as accurate but ran 20 ftps slower at accuracy node. Just FYI
 
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