Yea.. the 1903 was sending the ELD-X at ~2700fps with the 6.5. Mine about 2835 with Superformance.. 24" M70.
As you say, the groups seemed fine for hunting. I'll be seeing how much I can shrink the groups before next season. ;')
New Winchester StaBALL Powders
- Thread starter SeabeeKen
- Start date
As you say, the groups seemed fine for hunting. I'll be seeing how much I can shrink the groups before next season. ;')
Said it during the last powder shortage, and I'll say it again.
You can't keep up with current demand, so you plan to increase capacity. Do you invest $$$$$ just to make more of the same old product, a product that isn't even compliant with environmental regs anymore in many places you'd like to sell it, a product that doesn't include the latest innovations your customer wants?
Or, as long as you are putting money into new process, do you make something NEW?
I know what I'd do.
I think superformance is not really suitable for competitive shooting. Hunting it works fine but I wouldn’t waste any time chasing by your tall trying to get it to shoot competitively.
Dave
rwj
Gold $$ Contributor
When there are powder shortages, we’re all willing to use what’s available… be it “old” or “new”!
Yes, it's a hunting load for both of us. I have IMR-4350 and IMR-4451, and a few odds'n'ends for alternatives.
A fair few posts here are apparently written under the misapprehension that it is recreational shooting / handloading that drives these decisions. Nine time out of ten, that's simply not so - the big buyers, ie the proverbial 600lb gorillas in the room, are the major ammunition companies, and specifically what feeds down from the major military ammunition buyers. The military wants total temperature insensitivity and it wants ball powders (more accurate metering when loading to an industrial scale = more consistent charge weights = more consistent gas port pressures = more reliable automatic weapons). It also wants cooler burners (better barrel life and more rounds fired before automatic weapon barrels overheat); less fouling to retain accuracy, but again more importantly to retain reliability under extreme adverse operational conditions.
General Dynamics St. Marks Powder Co. which supplies Hodgdon with all of its Winchester 'ball' powders and Hodgdon branded 'spherical' grades (but not the recently acquired Ramshot powders) is the developer as well as manufacturer of the StaBall powders, also the anti-coppering CFEs and other innovative products. St. Marks is a major, major supplier to military ammo producers and it's they and their customers who drive the R&D. We ride on the back of that happily. (St. Marks also makes Hybrid 100v and it uses ball-powder manufacturing ingredients and processes - it's not an extruded powder as is stated in an earlier post.)
The St. Marks plant not only pioneered ball powder manufacture in the 1930s as part of the Olin Corporation's Winchester-Western division whose research came up with a revolutionarily different way of making propellants, but has been making it very successfully ever since. Its connection to Hodgdon goes back a long, long way to Brewster E. Hodgdon's second, maybe third, wartime surplus grade adding to the staple IMR-4895 extruded powder for .30-06 M2 cartridges. The US Government was stuck with some 30 million .303 British Mk. VIIz cartridges as part of a 'Lend-Lease' order when WW2 abruptly ended in mid August 1945. Sometime around 1948/9 it let a contract to a contractor to demill these rounds so that it could sell or otherwise dispose of the components for scrap or recycling. That produced c. 80 US tons (160,000 lb) of a fast-mid burning rate Winchester-Western St. Marks powder. Hodgdon got to hear of it and snapped it up for a few cents to the pound from Uncle Sam and sold it as Hodgdon Surplus BL-C. When it was all sold, handloaders wanted more, so Hodgdon did a deal with Olin / Winchester-Western c. 1960 to buy a new-manufacture replacement, which was a modified version of that developed by W-W for the 7.62 Nato standard ball round, and was retailed as Hodgdon Bl-C(2) and is of course still with us. That started a commercial, and very successful, relationship which is still running today with multiple grades some 60 years on. I'd say the chances of St. Marks letting Hodgdon, and handloaders, down with these powders is about nil bar one unforeseeable set of circumstances - a significant war breaking out with major US involvement. (Because then frankly, there won't be any powders for handloaders!)
(It should be noted that prior to the 1960s-80s, nearly all western governments had their own powder plants which made the majority of their smallarms propellants. There were also commercial outfits that developed and sold products to governments, especially in wartime, including Wichester-Wetsern St. Marks as was. Today, IIRC the USA government still own at least one propellant manufacturer, New River Energetics as part of the Radford complex in VA, even if it contracts out the R&D and plant operation to the private sector. Elsewhere in the west, governments closed or sold all of their historic powder factories. Their armies, and even the US, now rely on the same R&D departments and production plants that supply us - General Dynamics, Thales/ADI, Eurenco, Nammo/Vihtavuori; Explosia etc, etc. We're fine until military demand rises through a war, eg Ukraine right now and that's a modest size conflict in relative terms. When push comes to shove, we get ditched with governments grabbing the lot! And even then, I doubt if the West with the possible exception of the USA, has enough production capacity to fight a major war that lasts more than weeks.
Returning to the topic subject, the IMR-Endurons aren't St. Marks' developments or products. They were supplied by another General Dynamic Inc. division, its GD Ordnance and Tactical Systems-Canada Inc. at its Valleyfield, Quebec Province plant. All five were new double-based extruded grades, whilst Hodgdon's other contracted Valleyfield grades are traditional single-based extruded longstanding powders (the IMR 'Legendary Powders' as originally developed in the USA by the former Dupont Corporation, IMR-3031/4895 etc; also 'Accurate' marque single-based extruded powders using the same product numbers). I don't know if Valleyfield made/makes other double-based extruded powders for non-handloading customers or if this was new technology to it, but for whatever reason it hasn't worked out. Hodgdon officially says production unreliability; I wonder if there's more because as a group, they fail to achieve the MVs of single-based, never mind double based competitors. In any event problems with this type and formulation from one set of chemists and production engineers doesn't lead to any valid conclusions about those in a different outfit producing a different type, especially when the latter (St. Marks) outfit has an outstanding success and delivery record of nearly 90 years duration.
(Incidentally, while I think St. Marks Powder Co. makes brilliant ball powders and is a US company that members of this forum and Americans especially can be proud of, as a match and BR shooter, I'm not a fan of the genre, although I'm perfectly willing to try ball powders and give them a fair chance. I agree with @Dave M. on this point in his earlier post, and especially with regard to SUPERformance.)
General Dynamics St. Marks Powder Co. which supplies Hodgdon with all of its Winchester 'ball' powders and Hodgdon branded 'spherical' grades (but not the recently acquired Ramshot powders) is the developer as well as manufacturer of the StaBall powders, also the anti-coppering CFEs and other innovative products. St. Marks is a major, major supplier to military ammo producers and it's they and their customers who drive the R&D. We ride on the back of that happily. (St. Marks also makes Hybrid 100v and it uses ball-powder manufacturing ingredients and processes - it's not an extruded powder as is stated in an earlier post.)
The St. Marks plant not only pioneered ball powder manufacture in the 1930s as part of the Olin Corporation's Winchester-Western division whose research came up with a revolutionarily different way of making propellants, but has been making it very successfully ever since. Its connection to Hodgdon goes back a long, long way to Brewster E. Hodgdon's second, maybe third, wartime surplus grade adding to the staple IMR-4895 extruded powder for .30-06 M2 cartridges. The US Government was stuck with some 30 million .303 British Mk. VIIz cartridges as part of a 'Lend-Lease' order when WW2 abruptly ended in mid August 1945. Sometime around 1948/9 it let a contract to a contractor to demill these rounds so that it could sell or otherwise dispose of the components for scrap or recycling. That produced c. 80 US tons (160,000 lb) of a fast-mid burning rate Winchester-Western St. Marks powder. Hodgdon got to hear of it and snapped it up for a few cents to the pound from Uncle Sam and sold it as Hodgdon Surplus BL-C. When it was all sold, handloaders wanted more, so Hodgdon did a deal with Olin / Winchester-Western c. 1960 to buy a new-manufacture replacement, which was a modified version of that developed by W-W for the 7.62 Nato standard ball round, and was retailed as Hodgdon Bl-C(2) and is of course still with us. That started a commercial, and very successful, relationship which is still running today with multiple grades some 60 years on. I'd say the chances of St. Marks letting Hodgdon, and handloaders, down with these powders is about nil bar one unforeseeable set of circumstances - a significant war breaking out with major US involvement. (Because then frankly, there won't be any powders for handloaders!)
(It should be noted that prior to the 1960s-80s, nearly all western governments had their own powder plants which made the majority of their smallarms propellants. There were also commercial outfits that developed and sold products to governments, especially in wartime, including Wichester-Wetsern St. Marks as was. Today, IIRC the USA government still own at least one propellant manufacturer, New River Energetics as part of the Radford complex in VA, even if it contracts out the R&D and plant operation to the private sector. Elsewhere in the west, governments closed or sold all of their historic powder factories. Their armies, and even the US, now rely on the same R&D departments and production plants that supply us - General Dynamics, Thales/ADI, Eurenco, Nammo/Vihtavuori; Explosia etc, etc. We're fine until military demand rises through a war, eg Ukraine right now and that's a modest size conflict in relative terms. When push comes to shove, we get ditched with governments grabbing the lot! And even then, I doubt if the West with the possible exception of the USA, has enough production capacity to fight a major war that lasts more than weeks.
Returning to the topic subject, the IMR-Endurons aren't St. Marks' developments or products. They were supplied by another General Dynamic Inc. division, its GD Ordnance and Tactical Systems-Canada Inc. at its Valleyfield, Quebec Province plant. All five were new double-based extruded grades, whilst Hodgdon's other contracted Valleyfield grades are traditional single-based extruded longstanding powders (the IMR 'Legendary Powders' as originally developed in the USA by the former Dupont Corporation, IMR-3031/4895 etc; also 'Accurate' marque single-based extruded powders using the same product numbers). I don't know if Valleyfield made/makes other double-based extruded powders for non-handloading customers or if this was new technology to it, but for whatever reason it hasn't worked out. Hodgdon officially says production unreliability; I wonder if there's more because as a group, they fail to achieve the MVs of single-based, never mind double based competitors. In any event problems with this type and formulation from one set of chemists and production engineers doesn't lead to any valid conclusions about those in a different outfit producing a different type, especially when the latter (St. Marks) outfit has an outstanding success and delivery record of nearly 90 years duration.
(Incidentally, while I think St. Marks Powder Co. makes brilliant ball powders and is a US company that members of this forum and Americans especially can be proud of, as a match and BR shooter, I'm not a fan of the genre, although I'm perfectly willing to try ball powders and give them a fair chance. I agree with @Dave M. on this point in his earlier post, and especially with regard to SUPERformance.)
THANKS,.. Mr Laurie, as usual,.. "You da' Man" !
Whenever possible, I use Ball Powders in almost, everything, I Shoot, in VOLUME, like,..
9 MM, .38 spl., .223 Rem, .22-250 Rem, 6 XC and 6.5 Creed.
When it comes to, "Reasonable Accuracy" and when, THROWN charge GOOD Loads, ARE available, I'll go,..
Ball Powder !
I do load, some "Stick Powders" in my .270 WSM, .22-250, and sometimes, N-160, in my 6 XC, that's,.. IT !
I'm in the Process of shooting up, most of, my Old, "Stick Powders" as, I Love those,.. THROWN Charges
Whenever possible, I use Ball Powders in almost, everything, I Shoot, in VOLUME, like,..
9 MM, .38 spl., .223 Rem, .22-250 Rem, 6 XC and 6.5 Creed.
When it comes to, "Reasonable Accuracy" and when, THROWN charge GOOD Loads, ARE available, I'll go,..
Ball Powder !
I do load, some "Stick Powders" in my .270 WSM, .22-250, and sometimes, N-160, in my 6 XC, that's,.. IT !
I'm in the Process of shooting up, most of, my Old, "Stick Powders" as, I Love those,.. THROWN Charges
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It's whatever works for you, and (thank goodness) we still have lots of choice in both types and grades.
We in the UK have lost all the Hodgdon/ADI extruded 'Extreme' grades; all the IMRs bar the Endurons (and now they've gone too!); we got Norma back after a 25 years absence - but guess what, the UK importer didn't make a go of it and won't bring any more in; and we've lost all the older St. Marks grades - W748/760, BL-C(2), H335, etc.
Even so we still have a LOT of choice - Vihtavuori, Reload Swiss, most Ramshots (made in Belgium), Lovex (Czech - Shooters World to you guys); last but not least Alliant. (Sadly, the Alliant grades are a fearful price though - you think powders are expensive in the US - look at these
https://www.henrykrank.com/reloading/powder/?p=2
in a major Northern England gunshop and scroll down to the rifle grades. £96 is over $100 US. For a pound weight!!!)
One of the biggest gripes I have with Superformance is the fact that it seems to stick to every powder measure I ever used it in, including the 40 rounds of it that I just loaded for my buddy heading to Texas in January, which were loaded using the auto throw / auto trickler V3 combo on an A&D 120
Believe it or NOT,. I'm still shooting some, WW 2 Bruce Hogdon 4895 ( Now, H-4895 ) that was Made for the Governments, .30-06's, sometime in, the Mid 1940's.
My dad bought it, in the Mid 1950's ( 1955 - 1957 ish ) for, $ .50 ( FIFTY Cents ) a Pound in Paper Drum's to, use, in our .06's with, 150's Hornady's and, we killed, many a Deer with, IT !
32.5 grs under, a 50 -52 grain, Sierra bullet, shoots 1/2 inch groups or, better, out of my Rem 700, .22-250 and it still,.. Smells, "Good" !
I've also, Fire Formed my New, Peterson, 6.5 Creedmoor Brass with it, then used, StaBall !
I Repackaged it, in Plastic Containers MANY Years ago and it has been, stored Carefully, in a Wood lined, Powder Magazine.
Yup,.. I'm GLAD to Have it when, my Local Dealers want, $60- $65 a Pound for, Powder !
Wouldn't Hunt, Grizzlies with it, BUT,.... the local Sage Rats, cant tell that, it's,.. 75 to 80 Years, Old !
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that staball hd powder sounds alot like ramshot magnum
Ha! Ha! That's great! I've wondered if any is still around and used and was sure there'd be some somewhere. Stored in a reasonable environment, powder often has a long life - even so, 80+ years is remarkable!
Years back, I demilled nearly 500 mixed .30-06, mainly US govt surplus, rounds for my LGS. There were about 100 pre-war M2s with the heavy (172gn??) FMJBT. They had a stick powder that had broken down and turned into caustic sludge. Many of the cases had corroded so badly from the inside that they pulled into two parts using a press mounted collet puller. I suspect they'd been stored in a damp environment.
However, many more were W-W 1943 or 44 headstamp M2s with early St. Marks ball powder which looked and smelled perfect. I was really tempted to try the powder in one or two test cartridges, but eventually thought the better of it. Just too risky trying what would have been 70 year old powder of unknown origin from cartridges kept in unknown conditions!
Incidentally, there were four 30-06 lookalikes which were another calibre entirely - Kynoch .318 Westley-Richards Nitro Express, two each with 250gn FMJRNs and 250gn RNSPs. This design was very close to being a straightforward .330-06 and you could understand how they'd been mistaken for the US round.
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What a detailed reply. So much history and info in your reply that I had to let it all soak in. I’m surprised that the US doesn’t have more than one powder production facility in their stable. Even more shocked that the US government farms out the R&D and production control to the private sector. Somehow, in my mind, I’m confident that if we entered a major conflict or war tomorrow, the US military would have more powder than they could possibly need. Not sure how that might happen but I’m certain the US would make it happen. Also, the thought of handloaders still having access to powders would likely be non existent. I’d like to think our military is sitting on a huge stockpile of rifle powder somewhere. I’m certain they do the same thing we do as handloaders, just on a MUCH grander scale.
Dave
Chocdawg
Silver $$ Contributor
I’ve used Staball 6.5 in my 6.5x47L prone rifle for the last 2 yrs with 136, 139 & 140 grain bullets. Summarily, great performance. As far as I can tell ‘the monkey behind the trigger’ is still the limiting factor.
It would be interesting to see what kind of lab testing is necessary to qualify / quantify the thermodynamic / heat transfer properties of a ‘unit volume of powder.
It would be interesting to see what kind of lab testing is necessary to qualify / quantify the thermodynamic / heat transfer properties of a ‘unit volume of powder.
Here's the new burn rate chart with the new staball powders
RegionRat
Gold $$ Contributor
https://www.gunsandammo.com/editorial/ball-powder-st-marks-powder/462658
"The most recent development by St. Marks Powder addresses one of the biggest drawbacks of Ball powder propellant: poor temperature sensitivity performance as compared to extruded stick powders. St. Marks Powder has solved that problem and is now offering a line of propellant called “AccuFlat.” This family of powders matches Hodgdon’s Varget, H4350, H1000 and Retumbo for charge weight, performance and temperature sensitivity. Initial reports from the industry indicate that this propellant also offers high levels of accuracy. The military is currently taking a close look at these propellants for its match ammunition because of its loadability, performance and reduced cost."
"The most recent development by St. Marks Powder addresses one of the biggest drawbacks of Ball powder propellant: poor temperature sensitivity performance as compared to extruded stick powders. St. Marks Powder has solved that problem and is now offering a line of propellant called “AccuFlat.” This family of powders matches Hodgdon’s Varget, H4350, H1000 and Retumbo for charge weight, performance and temperature sensitivity. Initial reports from the industry indicate that this propellant also offers high levels of accuracy. The military is currently taking a close look at these propellants for its match ammunition because of its loadability, performance and reduced cost."
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