New To Annealing- Post anneal sizing ball is tough

[spife7980]

So I have recently gotten an Annie annealer and its great. I notice it much more with lapua but on remington brass too to a certain extent, all 223 so far. I can feel the shoulders bump back and the neck size down smoothly in my full length redding die, its when I extract and begin to remove the expander ball through the neck that it gets tough. Like "holy crap this is a remarkable amount of struggle" tough. I never noticed it on the brass before I began to anneal it, only since I began; before it was smooth. Now its like the expander hits a brick wall.

I cant find any difference by measurement on the annealed case from heat warpage or anything which the ease of the initial upstroke sizing seems to confirm (though Ive never read about it either but I suppose my tools arent necessarily precise enough to measure on that scale?). Which points me to it being hardness related but the fact that it sizes down is nice and easy lead me to assume that the extraction would be easy as well.

Anyone else notice this?

 

[jimbires]

yes , I did notice this . I'm not sure what is going on . it's either something to do with the carbon that is in the neck , or it's kind of standing up the texture of the brass . what I've been doing , that seems to have eliminated the problem , is after I anneal I use a brass cleaning brush on my RCBS case mate and brush the neck up and down a few times . since I've been doing this I haven't noticed any roughness .

 

[Sheldon N]

Yes, I've found that brushing with a neck brush after annealing makes a difference in the ease of upstroke with expander ball. Other thing you could try is switching over to a Redding carbide expander ball, those are much nicer. And of course if you have a FL bushing die, choosing a bushing that produces the least amount of sizing necessary is also a good idea.

 

[spife7980]

Its just a normal full length die, no bushings for the little 223. Ive never found the occsion to use a neck brush but I guess I know what Ill be picking up next.
Never figured there would be anything to brush out as its tumbled before annealing and annealing doesnt burn anything but I guess that doesnt mean that it cant still oxidize a layer of something.

Ive thought about going expander mandrel but then I would probably want to go bushing die then but maybe I would prefer the lee collet and a body die. It never stops and I have to draw the line somewhere. That carbide expander button is almost as much the body or collet die.

 

[swd]

2 things. Your annealed necks are probably sizing down slightly smaller and more importantly the necks have all the carbon burnt out of them which takes any natural lubricity out of them and makes them a little "sticky". Brushing and carbide expanders are the first steps but IMO neck lube will make the biggest difference. I use HBN and the difference is huge. It also makes bullet seating much smoother. Incorporating all three steps would be best.

 

[spife7980]

That is a good point. Whatever natural lube I had before is cooked up now. Redding carbide expander, imperial neck lube that has those little ceramic ball applicators, and a brush are in my shopping cart.

 

[Richard Coody]

2 things. Your annealed necks are probably sizing down slightly smaller and more importantly the necks have all the carbon burnt out of them which takes any natural lubricity out of them and makes them a little "sticky". Brushing and carbide expanders are the first steps but IMO neck lube will make the biggest difference. I use HBN and the difference is huge. It also makes bullet seating much smoother. Incorporating all three steps would be best.

Exactly! +1 for the imperial dry graphite neck lube application media

 

[shoot4fun]

That is a good point. Whatever natural lube I had before is cooked up now. Redding carbide expander, imperial neck lube that has those little ceramic ball applicators, and a brush are in my shopping cart.

You are on the right track with the dry lube. It is great for easing that friction from the expander ball. Are you, by chance, stainless media cleaning the brass before annealing? That takes all the friction-fighting out of those necks.

 

[spife7980]

Nope, just normal vibratory cob.

 

[Mr Underbridge]

I just dip the butt end of the bullet in the imperial dry neck lube before seating. I also stainless steel tumble and that polishes it nice on the inside of the neck.

 

[spife7980]

I just dip the butt end of the bullet in the imperial dry neck lube before seating. I also stainless steel tumble and that polishes it nice on the inside of the neck.

That doesnt help me with sizing though. My bullets still seat just fine.

 

[gotcha]

Nope, just normal vibratory cob.

I've never used a carbide expander though I believe it would be a great upgrade. I chuck up my expander stem and polish the ball with 600 grit compound. Something for you to try while waiting for the new carbide expander to arrive. The 600 grit will only polish the surface W/O reducing the diameter of the expander. ................ Well thought out answers by all.

 

[spife7980]

Another question- I normally use hornady one shot on my cases prior to sizing in a big ziploc to shuffle around and coat everything. Will that wet lube cause the graphite lube in the imperial balls to clump or gel up or anything? I dont want my exterior lube to ruin the lube for the interior.

 

[jimbires]

one shot works best if you let it dry . it leaves a dry film on the brass . if you let it dry it should not affect the graphite . I also dip my case necks in graphite before resizing . I dip my bullet base in graphite before seating it . I think if you use the brass brush and graphite you'll be fine .

 

[T-shooter]

So I have recently gotten an Annie annealer and its great. I notice it much more with lapua but on remington brass too to a certain extent, all 223 so far. I can feel the shoulders bump back and the neck size down smoothly in my full length redding die, its when I extract and begin to remove the expander ball through the neck that it gets tough. Like "holy crap this is a remarkable amount of struggle" tough. I never noticed it on the brass before I began to anneal it, only since I began; before it was smooth. Now its like the expander hits a brick wall.

I cant find any difference by measurement on the annealed case from heat warpage or anything which the ease of the initial upstroke sizing seems to confirm (though Ive never read about it either but I suppose my tools arent necessarily precise enough to measure on that scale?). Which points me to it being hardness related but the fact that it sizes down is nice and easy lead me to assume that the extraction would be easy as well.

Anyone else notice this?

Never noticed that before but I always lube the inside of the necks, lately with the Imperial dry lube. One thing to look at, how much undersize does the die reduce the neck before the expander opens it back up to the final dimension? I had my Forster dies bored out larger (by Forster) so there is less working the brass. Mine reduces the necks about .002" - .003" smaller than the final size and the ball expands them to the finished size which is a .002" interference fit. I don't remember exactly but the factory die on my .308 reduced the necks about .010 - .012" under finished size. That's way too much. My full-length dies have a floating ball/shaft so they don't pull the necks out of alignment. Also, I position the ball as high as I can so part of the neck is supported by the top of the die as the ball is pulled through. I run the case into the die as far as it goes, then raise the ball until it lightly touches, and then back it off about 1/2 turn.

 

[hrlincoln]

Another question- I normally use hornady one shot on my cases prior to sizing in a big ziploc to shuffle around and coat everything. Will that wet lube cause the graphite lube in the imperial balls to clump or gel up or anything? I dont want my exterior lube to ruin the lube for the interior.

Best to make sure your cases are dry or wiped off before dipping in imperial dry neck lube. You don't want the balls to cling or the graphite to clump, or anything

 

[gotcha]

Another question- I normally use hornady one shot on my cases prior to sizing in a big ziploc to shuffle around and coat everything. Will that wet lube cause the graphite lube in the imperial balls to clump or gel up or anything? I dont want my exterior lube to ruin the lube for the interior.

Huuuuuum ? Interesting. I use one shot also but apply it differently. I put cases in loading block, spray then turn the loading block 180 degrees and spray again. (when I'm not using Imperial die wax) The carrier chemical in the one shot causes the liquid to migrate up, down and around the case and "boils" off pretty quickly ( 1.5 to 2 mins) The spray angle I use causes the inside of the neck to be lubed also and I'll notice some build up of lube on the expander ball on standard full length sizing die. This facilitates the expander passing smoothly through the neck................. Since the expander is squeegeeing the wax from inside the neck I notice little difficulty at the bullet seating step in terms of uniformity of necessary seating pressure on press handle as long as I maintain .002" to .003" neck tension. ....... BTW based on your measurements you are getting .003" neck tension rather than the .002" you stated. Do the math. This is pretty much the norm for a standard F/L die.

 

[T-shooter]

Best to make sure your cases are dry or wiped off before dipping in imperial dry neck lube. You don't want the balls to cling or the graphite to clump, or anything

Absoutely! The instructional video from Imperial shows inserting the necks into the dry lube media first, then apply regular lube to the outside up to the necks. If you use a spray, it may not be possible to keep it out of the necks.

 

[savagedasher]

Why use a expander ball to start with?
Larry

 

[T-shooter]

Why use a expander ball to start with?
Larry

Since I can change the size of the ball, it allows me to set the inside diameter. The runout doesn't change with or without it. Most of mine, either .308 or .223/5.56, will have .001" or under measured halfway from the neck to the tip of the bullet. These are Forster Benchrest dies and the ball can float if there is any mis-alignment.