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New to .45-70 Government / Shiloh Sharps Rifle

On Friday I received my Shiloh Sharps Sporter #1. What a work of art. Because she's so nice (and valuable), I want to be CERTAIN that I use the proper loads. I have everything I need to make a high quality cartridge...Starline brass, precision cast lead bullets (405 grain), a half-decent press (Forester co-ax).

What is a great accuracy load for the Shiloh rifle that is of the appropriate pressure for this "non-Ruger #1" rifle? I have heard that this gun will actually shoot best with paper-patched bullets and black powder. Not sure if this is true and for now, I am sticking with traditional lead hard-case and smokeless powder. I'm a big fan of the ultra-clean burning VV powders.

Thanks for any help!!!
 
I have an H&R Buffalo Classic, basically a break open Sharps knock off. I have found it to be very enjoyable to shoot black powder loads in it. Way more fun than smokeless.

That being said, I have had good luck with H4198 Start load of 27gr, max load 31gr and a minimum OAL of 2.540". You will have to do some testing and see what your rifle likes. But H4198 has always worked well for me.

All the loads I have seen for VV have been for modern rifles like the Ruger #1 or Siamese Mausers.
 
The .45/70 is my favorite cartridge/rifle combination. I spent many happy hours loading and shooting black powder cartridges and graduated to high power smokeless loads with the appropriate rifles. This love affair started almost 50 years ago. That being said; there are several things you need to pay attention to.
1. Bullet diameter! It should be throat size, at least. That will be ideally a little larger than groove diameter. If you start out with a groove diameter bullet, it will upset to the diameter of the throat, upon firing and then squeeze down to groove diameter as it passes into the bore. That is an accuracy destroying process.(a .45/70 chamber that is cut for paperpatched bullets or jacketed bullets will have a throat)
2. Seat your bullets so they slightly engage the rifling in the throat. Depends on your bullet design, some have a bore riding nose with built in taper. (a chamber cut for naked lead bullets with grease grooves or for military spec ammo will commonly have no throat. The bearing surface of the bullet is in the case and the nose is a bore riding design)
3. Dont crimp for use in a single shot.
4. Use a bullet lubricant that is appropriate for the powder. Smokeless powder burns at a higher temperature than B.P. and regardless of claims to the contrary, B.P lube may not work well with smokeless. Use a moly basd bullet lube for smokeless loads. Lyman bullet lube is my favorite.
5. Light smokeless loads leave alot of airspace in the case. Make sure the powder is on top of the primer to get consistant ignition.
These are some basics I have learned from trial and error shooting antiques as well as fine reproductions and modern highpower applications with both lead and jacketed bullets.
Loading Black Powder requires another set of reloading techniques to get consistancy. Washing the brass in hot soapy water(non-clorinated soap) and scrubbing with a baby bottle brush as well as proper cleaning of your rifle are all additional tricks you need to know to keep you at the range. Greg
 
Thanks for all the valuable info lelong. I guess the thing is I have no idea what kinf of chamber/throat I have on my Shiloh Sharps rifle. I'll have to call them.
 
lelongcarabine said:
You could make a chamber cast and get some actual measurements. Greg

I thought of Cerrosafing the chamber...never done one before and I'm really worried about crapping up my beautiful new gun. Does the stuff clean-up real well, like if I drip some down the forend?

But yea, casting is the way to go now that you mention it.
 
Remove the wood. You can also use flowers of sulphur and lamp black(you melt this in a double boiler). It does shrink a little more than Cerrosafe, but it melts at a lower temperature. Greg
 
Quigley_Up_Over said:
On Friday I received my Shiloh Sharps Sporter #1. What a work of art. Because she's so nice (and valuable), I want to be CERTAIN that I use the proper loads. I have everything I need to make a high quality cartridge...Starline brass, precision cast lead bullets (405 grain), a half-decent press (Forester co-ax).

What is a great accuracy load for the Shiloh rifle that is of the appropriate pressure for this "non-Ruger #1" rifle? I have heard that this gun will actually shoot best with paper-patched bullets and black powder. Not sure if this is true and for now, I am sticking with traditional lead hard-case and smokeless powder. I'm a big fan of the ultra-clean burning VV powders.

Thanks for any help!!!

My Browning Hi-Wall 45-70 started out with cast bullets cast at .459, I shot IMR 4198 and got very good accuracy without having to slug the bore.
 
For a smokeless substitute for black powder, use a powder known to work well in a case that is not even half full. After a lot of research I settled on IMR (not Hodgdon) 4198 and it has worked very well with 360-520 grain bullets.

Here is a good article on 45/70 reloading for novices: http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/49

For accuracy in your gun I can almost guarantee you will want a soft lead alloy. Accuracy in my 45/70 with good hand-cast bullets of Lyman #2 alloy is about 1" - 1.25" at 100 yards. With the "hard-cast" bullets sold at gunshows the rifle would group 4-5" at the same distance. Linotype can produce beautiful bullets but requires a high level of casting skill and temp control to produce ideal results. The Lyman #2 is a very forgiving alloy.

Link: http://www.leadandbrass.com/lyman2/lyman2.html

There used to be a guy on eBAY from West Virginia who sold hand-cast bullets for a very reasonable price. I sent him a 500gr spitzer mold and he would custom mold bullets for me.

For factory bullets, the molycoated Bear Creek bullets are pretty darn good and you can actually shoot them without lube at moderate (black powder) velocities. The 360-grainer was my bullet of choice for Cowboy Action Side matches with my Pedersoli 45/70. That gun had a 100% win record at 200 yards at my local club. For longer range look at the 450-500 grain spitzers.

BEAR Creek bullets: http://www.northwestshootersupply.com/bearcreeksupplymolycoatedleadriflebullets.aspx

A loading trick I borrowed from the BPCR guys is to only size the top 1/2" of the case, then use the flaring die to restore a bit of flare at the case mouth. Do NOT roll-crimp when shooting a BP-equivalent low pressure load.
 
If you really want to make that Sharps shoot you will learn how to cast bullets and load black powder. Get you the book "SPG LUBRICANTS BP CARTRIDGE RELOADING PRIMER" by Mike Venturino & Steve Garbe . This will teach you how to proper cast and load for your Sharps.

As far as smokeless powders go using cast bullets get you some Accurate Arms XMP-5744 powder. It is made for these BIG case rounds to shoot cast bullets. This powder is not position sensitivity, it does not matter if the powder is against the primer or up against the bullet it shoots the same. For your 405 gr bullet I would use 28 grs. I shoot the Lyman mold # 457193 405 gr that drops from my mold with my mix at 418 grs with this load and it is very accurate and easy on the shoulder. It will do around 1400 fps which is about the velocity of a BP load with this bullet. Most Shiloh rifles have a groove diameter of .457 and my bullet drops from the mold .458 and shoots perfectly. I mainly shoot BP or Pyrodex in my Sharps with the RCBS BPS 500 gr bullet that drops at .458 diameter. It is really something to lay down and shoot over cross sticks at a 3 foot square gong at 1000 yards and lean over and look through your spotting scope and wait what seems like a minute and see the bullet smack it and then another minute to hear it. Smokeless powder will not get you that kind of accuracy out of your Sharps.
 
The 1863 is a nice rifle. Here's some things that work for me in my rifles.

The Sharps has a very tight chamber and using Starline brass I don't need to re-size after firing. I'd full length size them, fire form, then trim and chamfer. After that you shouldn't have to do anything besides cleaning to the brass.

I cast my own bullets and use a .460 sizing die to just basicly lube them. I shoot 500+ grain bullets and have never worked with anything lighter. The Sharps has a short " ball seat"
( throat ) and you'll want to allow a short jump to the lands.
The 405 grain bullet isn't good for any long range work, you'll want 500 or greater.

Two styles that work very well are the original 500 grain round nose. Lyman mold #457125
Or the 535 grain Postell, Lyman#457132

Good "Store Bought Bullets" can be had here. They will be lubed with the proper lube for either smokeless or black depending on your request.

http://www.montanabulletworks.com/

I only use black powder in my rifles as smokeless is just a passing fad. :-)

Good choices are Swiss, Schutzen and Goex. The 45-70 will like 2F or 1 1/2 F. I've never had much luck with cartridge grade.
I use Remington large Pistol primers for consistancy.

Powder can be bought from many sources. I buy mine a case at a time from these folks so as to have all the same lot number.

http://www.mainepowderhouse.com/
http://www.buffaloarms.com/

You'll want to slowly pour the powder into the case so it settles. I've used drop tubes and not used them, never saw much difference either way.
There's no real need to weigh charges, you can if you wish but it's mostly done by volume.

As an interesting side note, If you look under the bottom steel rotor on an older Lyman 55 measure, you'll see graduations stamped there. These are for black powder.

Once you charge your cases you need to seat a wad. They're available in poly or veggie and in .030 and.060 thicknesses. I use .060 poly ones and they protect the base of the bullet well.

Next will come the Vodoo Magic, or compression of the powder column. This is what will give you a clean burn and accuracy. You'll need a compression die for this.

http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,3330.html

Here's how I do it.
Pour enough powder into the case so that with the wad and the bullet are seated to the OAL you want, and there's no air space in the case.

Then begin to add powder and compress it to maintain the OAL. Different powders will like different amounts of compression. Swiss seems to like around .020 while some older lots of Goex liked almost .25!

Powder compression is very much like ladder testing. At some point you will see groups tighten up then begin to open again. You will also begin to notice the sound of the report changing. It will go from a soft "wump" with no compression to a sharp crack as burning efficency increases.

When shooting the rifle powder fouling will need to be controled. There are two ways to do this.
One way is to use a damp patch after each shot. Windex with vinagar works well as does plain old water.
Another way is with the use of a blow tube. A blow tube can be easily made from an old case and some PVC tubing. Just cut the head off an old case and glue in a 12 inch peice of tube. Depending on humidity levels you'll want to blow two to five deep breaths down the barrel after each shot. The moisture in your breath keeps the fouling soft.

This would also be a good time to mention "The Lube Star"
This is a star thats formed on the crown of the barrel if your bullet holds enough lube to carry it through the barrel.
One thing about bullet lubes. It's VERY inportant not to use any petrolium based products with black powder as a thick nasty tar like substance will form in the barrell.

Clean up after shooting these old rifles is a breeze. Mine only take 5 patches and I'm done.

One wet with windex one dry. Another wet with windex and two dry. I then coat the inside of the barrel with Crisco or bullet lube.

You didn't mention sights. If you plan on shooting 500 to 1000 yds you'll need a good verieir tang sight and a spirit level front sight with inserts.
Again, Buffalo Arms is an excellent source

From a bench at our club, I can put ten out of ten shots onto a ram at 500 yds using sights. On a good day I can keep them all on his head.

BPCR shooting is loads of fun. I'll halp you anyway I can so feel free to ask.

Craig aka 45Bpcr
 
Re: New to .45-70 Government / smokeless powder question

This is an older thread, but I am in same position as the orginal poster, with a new (to me) Browning 1885 high wall in 45-70. I have read that if you use smokeless and also use a wad, that you must avoid having an air space between wad and bullet base (I think that is what it said), or run the chance of 'ringing' your chamber. And this gets discussed with BP loads. What I am not clear on, if I use a light load (Trapdoor loads) of smokeless, which leaves a lot of airspace in the case, am I ok to not use a wad, but simply make sure powder has settled down next to primer when I load the cartridge into the chamber (and then don't tilt muzzle down so powder moves toward bullet)? Do I need to worry about using wads at all when using smokeless? Seems like I should not, since I don't think modern factory ammo with smokeless powder uses wads...
And with BP, I gather it is mandatory to use wads and to fill the case up so that there is light compression, no air space?

thanks, Ed
 
I have shot the BPCR's for years in both 45/70 and 40/65. However, I only use Black and heavy bullets that I cast from 20/1 (lead to tin). I have shot some groups without a wad a while back and they shot very good, but both rifles shoot their preferred loads great anyway.

I have a good bit of experience with this caliber, but not with light bullets and smokeless powder so take this with a grain of salt.

Because of smokeless taking up so little space in the case, I would skip any wad. There are fillers that take up the extra space, but that will be your choice. AA5744 is one suggested powder for this caliber due to it being supposedly postion insensitive. There is a lot of information out there about this subject, so I would suggest you look up Mike Venturino's articles. Rifle and Handloader magazines have discussed it many times.
 
First go to Shiloh Forums

Then go here Castboolits.com

Be prepared if you want to shoot smokeless, some folk there worship the Holy Black, so they may not warm up quickly.

You have a lot to learn. It is an entirely different world from bottle neck cases and pointy bullets
 
A fantastic plinking load for my highwall is Laser-cast 350 grain hard cast bullets over a mild load of SR4759. The problem is I hear 4759 has been discontinued. I'll try Unique or 2400 next


Jeff
 
The trick to cast bullets is to get over the fascination with muzzle velocity, get them down to about 1200 to 1300 FPS and you'll be happier. And yes, SR4759 has been discontinued, much to the dismay of those who duplex smokeless muzzle loaders. It was the best booster out there.
 
What is the twist of your 45-70? If its 1:18 you can shoot heavy cast bullets (480>530+). If 1:22 lighter cast bullets should be used. I normally use 20:1 lead to tin ratio and sometimes 30:1. My Browning 45-70 BPCR likes 536gr Postells over Swiss 1 1/2
as does my 45-90. I compress .25" and use poly wads .030 or .060", WLR primers and Starline brass. Winchester brass will hold a bit more powder than Starline or RP brass. I have a Military stocked Shiloh in 45-70 that has a 1:22 twist and likes the Gould style cast bullet as does a 1877 Trapdoor that I still shoot. Blackpowder loading is not about velocity but consistency rules. I clean my brass in a Thumblers Tumbler with ceramic material and use a Ken Light annealer after 4>5 firings. There is nothing like coming out of recoil and seeing the light change on a ram at 500m as it falls and the hearing the clang. BP is addictive and when you become comfortable with your rifle the 45-70 will take most N American game cleanly if you do your part. There is another powder (smokeless) that can be used in your 45-70 used by many SASS Shooters "Trail Boss"
that can be used with lead and jacketed bullets. I hope you enjoy your Shiloh.
Rpbump
 
Sorry to see that Montana Bullet works is out of business due to health developments. Is there another good recommended source for the 535 gr Postells? I don't want to get into casting my own just yet, play around with some different shapes/weights first.
thanks, Ed
 

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