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New to 308 f/tr

I shot my first f/tr in 308 this weekend. I used 2 different bullets to get a comparison of what my gun likes. I have the savage model 12 f/tr. I shot the new A-TIP 176gr hornady and the 175gr smk. The A-TIP shot at an average of 1925 fps @ 500 yrs and the smk was 1825 fps average. Both had same powder charge. The A-TIP had an average SD of 8.6 an the smk was 12 6. The smk had the better water line but the A-TIP had the smallest group. So my question is which one do I need to work with to get the consistency of more Xs. I did have 11 X with the smk and 7 X with the A-TIP. Attached in first pic is the A-TIP, the 2nd is the smk. I'm currently stuck on which one to develop for the gun I have an which the will perform consistently. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. THANKS

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Jared - Welcome to the party. I have a few pieces of advice. Just giving you the 'answers to the test' so you can avoid a very expensive and frustrating journey.

1.) Shoot Bergers. I don't know if the 12 F-T/R has enough twist to stabilize a 20x bullet, but if so shoot that. If not, shoot the 185 Jugs (these will work great if you plan to only be shooting mid-range)

2.) You don't mention what powders you're using, but stick to powders that are known to work well. Varget, N150, H4895, N140 etc. Don't try to reinvent the wheel.

3.) Neither of those loads are going to be competitive. My suggestion would be to let the target/paper tell you what shoots best, and to disregard ES/SD until you're shooting out at 1k. Don't dev loads off a chronograph unless literally everything else is perfect in your process, still neither of those SDs would be considered 'acceptable'.

4.) When you do your load dev, increase your powder charges in .2gr increments and look for vertical flat spots. Once you have a vertical flat spot established, work seating depth from .005 off, working back in .003" increments. You you very likely find something that damn near one holes them.

5.) Gun handling is critical in the dev process, especially for someone just starting out. You can chase a lot of load issues that are actually problems with how you're working the rifle.
 
The stock 12/ftr wont shoot the 20x but will shoot the 185 berger. go with longer free bore and the 185 really shine and you can shoot the 20x if you want
 
Don’t trust the velocity on the shot marker either. They can be off. This seems to look like you are. I would do more load development and shoot the one that shoots tightest. The 185 Berger Juggernaut is a great bullet.
 
Jared - Welcome to the party. I have a few pieces of advice. Just giving you the 'answers to the test' so you can avoid a very expensive and frustrating journey.

1.) Shoot Bergers. I don't know if the 12 F-T/R has enough twist to stabilize a 20x bullet, but if so shoot that. If not, shoot the 185 Jugs (these will work great if you plan to only be shooting mid-range)

2.) You don't mention what powders you're using, but stick to powders that are known to work well. Varget, N150, H4895, N140 etc. Don't try to reinvent the wheel.

3.) Neither of those loads are going to be competitive. My suggestion would be to let the target/paper tell you what shoots best, and to disregard ES/SD until you're shooting out at 1k. Don't dev loads off a chronograph unless literally everything else is perfect in your process, still neither of those SDs would be considered 'acceptable'.

4.) When you do your load dev, increase your powder charges in .2gr increments and look for vertical flat spots. Once you have a vertical flat spot established, work seating depth from .005 off, working back in .003" increments. You you very likely find something that damn near one holes them.

5.) Gun handling is critical in the dev process, especially for someone just starting out. You can chase a lot of load issues that are actually problems with how you're working the rifle.
My 1:12 twist barrel doesn't like the 185 jug. I have worked both loads up to the tightest group of 3 rounds almost in the same hole. I know gun handling has play in my grouping skills so back to the question of do I chase the tighter grouping of the A-TIP or the good water line of the smk
 
My 1:12 twist barrel doesn't like the 185 jug. I have worked both loads up to the tightest group of 3 rounds almost in the same hole. I know gun handling has play in my grouping skills so back to the question of do I chase the tighter grouping of the A-TIP or the good water line of the smk

I would do neither. I'd stop any load dev with those two bullets and put the money you saved into a 1:10 twist Krieger/Bart etc. and get it throated for the 20X with a .170fb+ reamer...because that's what you'll be shooting against.

If you're just hell bent on on doing it the hard way, I would choose the 176 A-Tip because of its significantly higher BC value. I would figure out a way to tune it so the waterline is good, and it's shooting small groups.

Good luck.
 
I would do neither. I'd stop any load dev with those two bullets and put the money you saved into a 1:10 twist Krieger/Bart etc. and get it throated for the 20X with a .170fb+ reamer...because that's what you'll be shooting against.

If you're just hell bent on on doing it the hard way, I would choose the 176 A-Tip because of its significantly higher BC value. I would figure out a way to tune it so the waterline is good, and it's shooting small groups.

Good luck.
great advice from a good shooter
 
I would do neither. I'd stop any load dev with those two bullets and put the money you saved into a 1:10 twist Krieger/Bart etc. and get it throated for the 20X with a .170fb+ reamer...because that's what you'll be shooting against.

If you're just hell bent on on doing it the hard way, I would choose the 176 A-Tip because of its significantly higher BC value. I would figure out a way to tune it so the waterline is good, and it's shooting small groups.

Good luck.
Thanks for the advice. I was just trying to see what I could learn with current barrel and thought that the bc of the A-TIP could maybe compete with the 185 jugs. This is a new learning experience for me and I understand that it may be better to switch barrel twist. Thanks for the advice.
 
If you are for whatever reason married to keeping that barrel for awhile and shooting 500 yd matches only I would also suggest looking into the Berger 155 or 168 hybrid. Both can be pushed to considerable velocities in a long barrel and at 500 yards will give up a little to the big boy 200 gn loads, but with good wind calls can be very competetive. I have won with both 155 and 168 hybrids at our local 500 yd matches. Both were very easy to load for and I could get 3000fps out of the 155's and near 2900 with the 168's out of a 30" barrel. I still load them sometimes and shoot them at the club matches and do not feel to be at a disadvantage against the other guns on the line.
 
Jared - the term "better waterline" doesn't carry a great deal of meaning for an F-Class target when the group extends from the center of the 8-ring on one side to the center of the 8-ring on the other side at only 500 yd. No mater how you slice it, that would add up to a lot of dropped points. Nonetheless, the A-tip target appears the better of the two by a substantial margin. As far as I can tell from the image, if you were to eliminate the sighting shots, the A-tip target grouping looks even tighter. This opinion is by no means supported by rigorous statistical analyses (i.e. n = 2), but from the two targets you've shown, the A-tip load looks to be the better load of the two. Any more detailed interpretation can only be made with major inferences and caveats. For example, you did not mention anything about the wind conditions when the two groups were fired, which could have a large impact on the interpretation of the targets. Without additional side-by-side comparisons and more details regarding the specific conditions, any interpretation beyond stating "the A-tip group looks better than the SMK group" is largely unsupported opinion.

One thing I'm curious about is the relative velocities of the two loads. You stated that both loads used the same charge weight, yet you also indicated that the A-tip load was 100 fps faster in terms of average velocity at 500 yd, even though it weighs one grain more than the Matchking. Back-calculating using JBM Ballistics and the specifics for the 176 A-tip, I'm coming up with muzzle velocities for the both 176 A-tips and the 175 SMKs of approximately 2625 fps. I have to point out that those are markedly slow muzzle velocities for a 30" barreled F-TR rifle. So my concern at this point is whether either of those two loads has really been "optimized" for your specific setup. It could make a very big difference with regard to accurately assessing/interpreting your two targets above. If you would be willing to post more details about your load development process and the details of the two loads themselves, I suspect you might get better feedback on where to go from here.

I have looked at the 176 A-tips with some interest since they first came out, although I have never actually purchased any. They basically have about the same G7 "box" BC value as a 185 Juggernaut (~0.283/0.284). The BC of the 185 Jugs can be increased a bit by pointing, whereas the the BC of the 176 A-Tips cannot. However, the A-tips will probably tune in at around 50-75 fps faster than the Jugs. All in all, I'd call it dead even in terms of ballistic performance between the 176 A-tips and the 185 Juggernauts. In other words, when loaded to comparable pressure, they will both give very similar external ballistics. In such a scenario, the only good way to pick one or the other would be based on their potential for precision. If they can both be loaded to equal precision, then neither one really represent a better option than the other.

The reason I'm bringing this up is that I generally shoot the 200.20X bullet in F-TR matches. When loaded to its full potential, it is clearly a better choice in terms of external ballistics than the 185 Juggernaut, which I shot for many years. Nonetheless, I have recently had my a$$ handed to me twice in 600 yd matches by shooters using 185 Juggernauts when I was using a well-proven 200.20X load. My point is that how "competitive" a given load may be is not always what the combination of velocity and BC indicates on paper. The two individuals behind those particular 185 Juggernaut loads are very, very fine shooters and they had them tuned exceedingly well. Certainly well enough to give myself and several other F-TR shooters a lesson, despite the fact that most of us were using 200.20X loads with a noticeable ballistic advantage on paper. Along the same line, I think the 176 A-tip bullet has the potential to be just as competitive as the 185 Jugs or 185 Hybrids, or at least close enough so that any differential would be largely on you, not the bullet. As a place to start participating, learning, and enjoying F-TR competition, there is no reason you could not use the 176 A-tips until such a time as you felt ready to move up to a heavier, higher BC bullet. Notably, that kind of an upgrade would almost certainly necessitate a new barrel and/or different chambering to accommodate the longer heavier bullets. So there is nothing at all wrong with using up what you have before making such a change.

The only major caveat to this notion is the idea of comparable precision. Regardless of the bullet you choose, a decent F-TR load needs to consistently shoot at least half a minute 5-shot groups at 100 yds, and a quarter minute would be even better. If the A-tips can be loaded to this level of precision, I think you would find yourself very happy with the results using them in matches. If not, they would be a pretty pricey option for mediocre precision. Given your setup, another option to consider might be the Berger 168 Hybrid. Like the 176 A-Tip, its BC is fairly close to that of the 185 juggernaut such that with the extra velocity you get in a tuned load, the difference in performance is essentially a wash. Likewise, it does not require a 10-twist barrel or the much longer freebore chamber that are a prerequisite for shooting the 200.20X bullet. In other words, they would also be just about ideal for your setup. Something else to consider at any rate.

Best of luck to you in your F-TR endeavors! This is a great place to get useful information, so please keep asking questions and keep us informed on your progress.
 
Remember the term “waterline” is an excuse for a poor group and water runs down not across. Take these guy’s advice and go with varget and a juggernaut. Dont be the new guy that struggles trying to make a silk purse from a sow’s ear. Start concentrating on a new barrel, fit by a gunsmith with the correct reamer for your bullet, which btw should be the bullet that will beat you if youre not using it.
 
I would go with the Berger 168 Hybrid given your current barrel twist. A great bullet used by many winners. As other have said the velocity increase at close to 3000 fps makes up the difference in BC against the 200grn bullets in a lot of cases. To use the 200grns and get the advantage from them you have to push them hard. So hard that it takes a real negative toll on your brass. To the point of perhaps only one reloading. The extra recoil and rifle handling also comes into the equation.
 
My shooting partner has the same rig as you do. yes, it will shoot the 185 Jugs, but it shoots the 168 Hybrids much better. If you are bound and determined to wear out your Savage bbl. (just like my partner) give the 168 hybrids a try. Worst case scenario, they don't shoot any better than what you have now.
I hope this helps,

Lloyd
 
Don't think anyone mentioned it, but the sierra 155 Palma is also a great bullet. I get ~3020 fps with ~10 SD with thrown charges of 8208 xbr in my Palma rifle. All of these targets were shot at 600 with a sling and the first two were with iron sights.
 

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Hey buddy, I've got bullets from 155 on up. Let's get you something loaded and head to Borden November 7th. Finish the year out punching holes in paper at 500 yards. I agree with Sir Bod ^^^^^ great folks at Borden and Attterbury to learn from. Borden has a fantastic clinic each February and great coaches early March to get things going for ya. We can plan Borden and Atterbury next year then hopefully the big show in the summer at Atterbury. 1/2 minute midrange setup with least possible cost might put a smile on a fellas face until the wind blows. Heck work is work, matches are fun and lots of fellowship lets go have some fun buddy.
 
Jared - the term "better waterline" doesn't carry a great deal of meaning for an F-Class target when the group extends from the center of the 8-ring on one side to the center of the 8-ring on the other side at only 500 yd. No mater how you slice it, that would add up to a lot of dropped points. Nonetheless, the A-tip target appears the better of the two by a substantial margin. As far as I can tell from the image, if you were to eliminate the sighting shots, the A-tip target grouping looks even tighter. This opinion is by no means supported by rigorous statistical analyses (i.e. n = 2), but from the two targets you've shown, the A-tip load looks to be the better load of the two. Any more detailed interpretation can only be made with major inferences and caveats. For example, you did not mention anything about the wind conditions when the two groups were fired, which could have a large impact on the interpretation of the targets. Without additional side-by-side comparisons and more details regarding the specific conditions, any interpretation beyond stating "the A-tip group looks better than the SMK group" is largely unsupported opinion.

One thing I'm curious about is the relative velocities of the two loads. You stated that both loads used the same charge weight, yet you also indicated that the A-tip load was 100 fps faster in terms of average velocity at 500 yd, even though it weighs one grain more than the Matchking. Back-calculating using JBM Ballistics and the specifics for the 176 A-tip, I'm coming up with muzzle velocities for the both 176 A-tips and the 175 SMKs of approximately 2625 fps. I have to point out that those are markedly slow muzzle velocities for a 30" barreled F-TR rifle. So my concern at this point is whether either of those two loads has really been "optimized" for your specific setup. It could make a very big difference with regard to accurately assessing/interpreting your two targets above. If you would be willing to post more details about your load development process and the details of the two loads themselves, I suspect you might get better feedback on where to go from here.

I have looked at the 176 A-tips with some interest since they first came out, although I have never actually purchased any. They basically have about the same G7 "box" BC value as a 185 Juggernaut (~0.283/0.284). The BC of the 185 Jugs can be increased a bit by pointing, whereas the the BC of the 176 A-Tips cannot. However, the A-tips will probably tune in at around 50-75 fps faster than the Jugs. All in all, I'd call it dead even in terms of ballistic performance between the 176 A-tips and the 185 Juggernauts. In other words, when loaded to comparable pressure, they will both give very similar external ballistics. In such a scenario, the only good way to pick one or the other would be based on their potential for precision. If they can both be loaded to equal precision, then neither one really represent a better option than the other.

The reason I'm bringing this up is that I generally shoot the 200.20X bullet in F-TR matches. When loaded to its full potential, it is clearly a better choice in terms of external ballistics than the 185 Juggernaut, which I shot for many years. Nonetheless, I have recently had my a$$ handed to me twice in 600 yd matches by shooters using 185 Juggernauts when I was using a well-proven 200.20X load. My point is that how "competitive" a given load may be is not always what the combination of velocity and BC indicates on paper. The two individuals behind those particular 185 Juggernaut loads are very, very fine shooters and they had them tuned exceedingly well. Certainly well enough to give myself and several other F-TR shooters a lesson, despite the fact that most of us were using 200.20X loads with a noticeable ballistic advantage on paper. Along the same line, I think the 176 A-tip bullet has the potential to be just as competitive as the 185 Jugs or 185 Hybrids, or at least close enough so that any differential would be largely on you, not the bullet. As a place to start participating, learning, and enjoying F-TR competition, there is no reason you could not use the 176 A-tips until such a time as you felt ready to move up to a heavier, higher BC bullet. Notably, that kind of an upgrade would almost certainly necessitate a new barrel and/or different chambering to accommodate the longer heavier bullets. So there is nothing at all wrong with using up what you have before making such a change.

The only major caveat to this notion is the idea of comparable precision. Regardless of the bullet you choose, a decent F-TR load needs to consistently shoot at least half a minute 5-shot groups at 100 yds, and a quarter minute would be even better. If the A-tips can be loaded to this level of precision, I think you would find yourself very happy with the results using them in matches. If not, they would be a pretty pricey option for mediocre precision. Given your setup, another option to consider might be the Berger 168 Hybrid. Like the 176 A-Tip, its BC is fairly close to that of the 185 juggernaut such that with the extra velocity you get in a tuned load, the difference in performance is essentially a wash. Likewise, it does not require a 10-twist barrel or the much longer freebore chamber that are a prerequisite for shooting the 200.20X bullet. In other words, they would also be just about ideal for your setup. Something else to consider at any rate.

Best of luck to you in your F-TR endeavors! This is a great place to get useful information, so please keep asking questions and keep us informed on your progress.
My muzzle velocity is 2775
 
Like Eric Cortina said, "shoot blue box brass (Lapua) and yellow box bullets (Berger)". There is a lot of truth to the mantra, "Shoot better, Shoot Berger". Just pick a weight that is better suited to your twist.
 

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