Liven The Dream
Gold $$ Contributor
4166 for a .308 Palma Load 155gr. Bullet at 3000 to 3020 ! Pressure sighs like, from He--.
Also found it like cleaning Diesel oil out of the Rifle.
SO62 is great in a .223 Gas Gun with 80gr. Bullets and Clean.
New substitute for Varget?
- Thread starter DRNewcomb
- Start date
Also found it like cleaning Diesel oil out of the Rifle.
SO62 is great in a .223 Gas Gun with 80gr. Bullets and Clean.
I've not used it much myself, but I have three UK F/TR shooting friends who report good results with it in small primer 308. One was using it with up to 200gn bullets in national long-range matches - I've not spoken to him this year, so don't know if he's since moved on. The others are a married couple, keen club plus selected nationals entrants. They use it for the Berger 155.5 LR BT and the 185gn Juggernaut, choice depending on match distance and / or weather conditions and have done very well with this powder.
I am glad I bought a bunch of it during the Obama scare.
Viht N150 works very well there. Likewise, N140 or 540 which some prefer. There are many other possibilities, but in the UK we started using N150 years ago and it has become near standard.
Anyone who wants it & can afford it. People having choices are what makes this country great. Of course, that’s fading fast. To many thinking they are owed something.
My wife & I are driving 5 hours round trip today to trade for Varget because I need it & don’t have any I’ll feeling toward @Dgd6mm for buying what he thinks he needs. It’s a great country we live in. These bad times are temporary and shall pass.
I have no problem with people buying in bulk. I ALWAYS HAVE! I just don't like it when people buy it to try and make a killing by selling it afterwards
Or these bad times can be the beginning of a longer trend !!
Now as for IMR 4166.....I like it. Never grew fond of Varget simply
because there was never any around to test. When there was. It
did not do any better then IMR 4064, to justify it's cost. Temp
stability of powders get over blown in my opinion. One of my
newest cats had me testing on the Lovex Precision Rifle powder.
It gave some impressive results considering it's $12 bucks cheaper
then Varget per lb. I found a few lbs of 4166 to test against the
Lovex PR. and found it to be a bit faster, and cleaner burning.
With a slightly aged barrel, I was able to get 3/8 inch groups.
Overall though I have a bit more head room with Lovex PR over
IMR 4166.
brokeasajoke
Silver $$ Contributor
I've been thinking about a varget alternative as well. It gets used primarily in a 204r and a 308. I've been pondering switching to N140 or 150.
4166 is a little closer to H4895 than VarGet. It seems to be bulky and this limits its use in small case cartridges. I'm running a series of range tests now on H4895 / VarGet alternatives using a 223 Rem F-Class rifle and the 77gn SMK as the test vehicle. I was surprised by the absence of 4166 loads given that burn-rate wise it's nominally close to H4895. When I say absence, I mean 100% absence bar Hodgdon's own 'Annual Manual' in the 223 and similar cartridges. This raised concerns in my mind that there was 'something funny' about this powder, say a tendency to unpredictably pressure-out or suchlike, but it appears more mundane. It looks like you can't get enough powder into a 223 case to give the MVs people expect. My first go with the powder was cautious given the above concerns and topped out at 23.0gn in a chamber whose freebore is around midway between Wylde and PT&G 'ISSF' and 2.4"COAL. MV in a 30-inch barrel was 2,800 fps, same as 23gn H4895 more or less. My top load with the benchmark H4895 was 24.4gn for 2,975 and I'm looking for similar performance from potential alternatives.
My second lot, loaded but yet to be shot, goes up to 24.4gn, but charge compression started at around 23.6gn in current 30.5gn water capacity Lapua brass despite the longer COAL. I now have QuickLOAD v.3.9 that includes the powder and it suggests it pressures out rather earlier than H4895 and similar powders. In a charge table with 105% fill-ratio and 55,000 psi PMax limits in my set-up, 4166 is second lowest MV out of 24 suitable UK available powders. QL is of course just a model, so I'll have to see actuals when I next get to the range. This doesn't promise well though for those limited to 2.26" COALs either through freebore or magazine-use. As that's what the bullet and powder companies all work with, and use of the SAAMI 223 Rem chamber with its 0.025" freebore / sharper leade angle constraints, one can understand why nobody other than Hodgdon bother to list the powder, especially given so many alternatives.
There seem to be fewer 4166 constraints in larger capacity cartridges, although even there I notice those manuals which include in 308 Win and 30-06 appear drop it from heavier bullets where loads continue to be provided for H4895/VarGet.
On Lovex SO62 (SW 'Precision Rifle'), I had thought it slightly faster burning than VarGet until I tried it in the above 223 / 77 set-up. It was around 100 fps down on VarGet on the first go with near same charges and needed an extra 0.6gn at the top end to match VarGet MVs, a fair increase in this cartridge.
My second lot, loaded but yet to be shot, goes up to 24.4gn, but charge compression started at around 23.6gn in current 30.5gn water capacity Lapua brass despite the longer COAL. I now have QuickLOAD v.3.9 that includes the powder and it suggests it pressures out rather earlier than H4895 and similar powders. In a charge table with 105% fill-ratio and 55,000 psi PMax limits in my set-up, 4166 is second lowest MV out of 24 suitable UK available powders. QL is of course just a model, so I'll have to see actuals when I next get to the range. This doesn't promise well though for those limited to 2.26" COALs either through freebore or magazine-use. As that's what the bullet and powder companies all work with, and use of the SAAMI 223 Rem chamber with its 0.025" freebore / sharper leade angle constraints, one can understand why nobody other than Hodgdon bother to list the powder, especially given so many alternatives.
There seem to be fewer 4166 constraints in larger capacity cartridges, although even there I notice those manuals which include in 308 Win and 30-06 appear drop it from heavier bullets where loads continue to be provided for H4895/VarGet.
On Lovex SO62 (SW 'Precision Rifle'), I had thought it slightly faster burning than VarGet until I tried it in the above 223 / 77 set-up. It was around 100 fps down on VarGet on the first go with near same charges and needed an extra 0.6gn at the top end to match VarGet MVs, a fair increase in this cartridge.
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
Laurie - FWIW, I tested 4166 when it first came out in the .223 Rem with 90 VLDs. Although the kernels are much larger (approximately twice the size/weight) than H4895, I did not have any issue getting enough in the case. The reason I stuck with H4895 at the time was that it was clear the 4166 wasn't going to generate anywhere near the 2840-2850 fps I was obtaining in tuned H4895 loads at the time. Of course, since that time, I have become slightly more cognizant of the poor brass life associated with those H4895 loads, so the 4166 might be worth a re-visit. I have observed that 4166 has been available on a much more regular basis in the last 10 months, whereas H4895 has only rarely been seen on most LGS shelves for over a year.
I'm sure you realize that if 4166 works really well in your testing and you actually tell anyone the results, it will then quickly disappear from shelves around the world, just like Varget and H4895.
Aahhhh ............ You'll be running with 200 thou' FB though Ned ?? Oddly enough, I've used Viht N150 a great deal in the past in 223 in ultra long FB Chambers without difficulty, and although I thought it likely a tad slow burning for 77s gave it a spin in this chamber. No go .... almost every charge weight was compressed and COALs were all over the place with me feeling resistance to bolt lock-down because bullets had been pushed out enough to be in the lands. The results don't look too bad on paper, but MVs were way above those expected and pressures had to be well up too to get them, not to mention a fine collection of badly cratered primers. FB at around 100 thou' does make quite a difference to usable case capacity, more than I expected. The 77 is a very blunt nose design too of course restricting the COAL and seeing the base deeper than I might have expected. The other thing I found that affects this was Lapua case capacity. Traditionally, I worked on 31gn water in a fireformed case as that's what they held in the (Lapua cardboard 'gold box') days when I shot 90 VLDs in high-level FTR, but more recent lots hold 30.5-30.7gn. That half-grain reduction has an effect with the bulkier powders.
I'm sure you realize that if 4166 works really well in your testing and you actually tell anyone the results, it will then quickly disappear from shelves around the world, just like Varget and H4895.
Ha! Ha! I sometimes wonder if I metaphorically shoot myself in the foot with some of my powder performance reports. I may certainly have outdone myself with promoting Lovex SO62 (SW Precision Rifle) as I couldn't get any more last time I tried. With the number of powders being tried here and amounts I'll have left over from this round of testing, I'll have enough to see me shooting 223 for many years even if I couldn't find another new tin in stock. H4895 and VarGet, the two benchmarks aside, I'm testing 24 powders, 17 extruded and 7 ball type. Of these, five (one ball and four extruded) are Europe only products so can't be sucked up by insatiable American shooter demand. (So far, anyway! There is one which I'm surprised SW hasn't renamed and started importing.) In any event having shot some eight or ten 4166 groups, I see it remaining a usable but not star performer unless my heavier charge weight batches move up a notch when I try them.
Whilst N150 surprised in one direction, its high energy variant N550 also did so but in the opposite one. I thought this would be a real outsider with the 77, but obtained excellent results. If this is confirmed with full five round strings as opposed to fours, likewise works as well with 80s/80.5s, then I'm OK for 223 powder for the rest of my life with the amount of 10 year old 550 I have in the cupboard going back to early 308 Win FTR days and this powder allied to 185 Juggernauts! I did try N550 in my ultra long FB chambered True-Flite barrel FTR rifles with 90gn Bergers of both varieties, but never got as good results as VarGet or Re15.
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
Traditionally, I worked on 31gn water in a fireformed case as that's what they held in the (Lapua cardboard 'gold box') days when I shot 90 VLDs in high-level FTR, but more recent lots hold 30.5-30.7gn. That half-grain reduction has an effect with the bulkier powders. Mine have generally ranged from 30.8 to 31.1 gr average volume, very similar to your experience. I have recently started using Norma brass (bulk 250 pcs, from Midsouth Shooter Supply). It weighs slightly less than Lapua, and obviously has slightly more case volume (31.41 gr average case volume in the first of two Lots I purchased). More importantly (I hope), the center region of the webbing is actually ~8% thicker than Lapua by my measurements. Hopefully that will mean decent primer pocket life for the loads I run. The lighter weight of the Norma brass appears to be mostly made up via thinner case/neck wall thickness. Most importantly of all, the precision in my hands is every bit as good as Lapua. That has not been the case with some other .223 Rem brass brands I have tried.
Ha! Ha! I sometimes wonder if I metaphorically shoot myself in the foot with some of my powder performance reports. I was just funning you
I’m using some 4166 behind a 69 SMK to save my 4895.
22.8 is giving me 2790 muzzle velocity and with the 69’s set at touch, I have all kinds of case room for the .223 Rem.
22.8 is giving me 2790 muzzle velocity and with the 69’s set at touch, I have all kinds of case room for the .223 Rem.
I’ve been reloading over 50 years. I’m getting low on Varget but I’ve used IMR 3031 and 4198 years before Varget was produced. They are still great powders! I I’ve used both for 222 and 3006. Using 3031 now for 223 AR. Very accurate.
FWIW: My .308 4166 load is .1 grain higher than my 4064, they're both 175s at 2650 fps.
Kevin57
Gold $$ Contributor
Guys,
Be careful with VV150. I worked up a load in FL that drilled little tiny tiny holes at 600 in my 6BR for an entire week. Great velocity. SUPER es and so on. Took the load to the nats in CA and I should have just brought a shotgun! Back in Fl the load shot great again.
So YMMV but this is my experience. It loves you or you end up with a sucking chest wound.
K
Be careful with VV150. I worked up a load in FL that drilled little tiny tiny holes at 600 in my 6BR for an entire week. Great velocity. SUPER es and so on. Took the load to the nats in CA and I should have just brought a shotgun! Back in Fl the load shot great again.
So YMMV but this is my experience. It loves you or you end up with a sucking chest wound.
K
Shooters World Precision Rifle S062 Smokeless Gun Powder 8 lb
Precision Rifle propellant has a burn rate and temperature sensitivity very similar to Hodgdon VARGET. Temperature sensitivity, burn rate and...
www.midwayusa.com
have you checked shooters world powders lately? what a joke
not my intention to bump an old thread, but this getting nuts. over triple the price!
I paid $300 / 8# back in December for a jug of Shooters World Long Rifle.
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