New rifle in .223,... do I want 1:7 twist or 1:9 twist?

[msinc]

One thing I think that is being overlooked in this thread is the actual "why" all these folks are following the faster twist...I mean, yeah, it's still the old "bigger better faster" thing, but what really gave us the 1-in-7 and why??? Wasn't it the Army?? and didn't they do it because the 5.56 was having a hard time penetrating an enemy helmet at what the Army refers to as it's maximum effective range.
The test was that it had to pierce an 8mm thick steel plate set on a 45 degree angle at 400 meters. Prior to the advent of the SS -109 the M16A1 with ball ammo would not do it. The SS-109 "green tip" round will do it, but I guess they didn't find it reliable enough, not to mention a little expensive to make. It was also notoriously inaccurate...you'd be lucky to hit an enemy helmet at 400 meters with SS-109. The Army has always been known for taking something good and modifying it until it don't work anymore.
Heavier bullets are more reliable to penetrate and I think everyone else just fell in behind the new twist rate because it would shoot heavier bullets and stabilize them further out.
Kind of like taking a 308 with a 1-in-7 twist and shooting 350 grain bullets and calling it an "elephant/long range" rifle. Yeah, okay..........

 

[orbitup]

The Army has always been known for taking something good and modifying it until it don't work anymore.

Thanks for the chuckle.

 

[swadiver]

I went with a Bartlein 1 in 7.7 twist for my Model 10 Savage budget build. got a pre fit barrel from Greg at Southern Precision Rifles. he has some reamer options. this one had a throat at .126". 3000 rds on the barrel now , so it has grown, but it still shoots crazy good. highly recommend Greg at Southern Precision Rifles.

1) Savage 10 action
2) Bartlein barrel
3) Choate tactical stock (only $200!!!)
4) Used Weaver T36 glass
5) cheap UTG rings

only mods were to the stock and trigger. i added the adjustable butt plate/pad for $90 and bedded the recoil lug only. the Choate uses an aluminum V block. i replaced the Accutrigger with a Rifle Basix II

whether you get a 1 in 7, 1 in 8 or 1 in 9 twist, make sure you try the Berger 73gr HPBT bullets. i have used them in a Criterion 1 in 9 bolt rifle, this current rifle, and in a 1 in 7.7 Krieger barreled AR 15. they shoot awesome in all three rifles, but the Bartlein is by far the best, most consistent shooter. the Bartlein loves Varget with these bullets

all 5 @ 100 yds

 

[Kracken McGraw]

I went with a Bartlein 1 in 7.7 twist for my Model 10 Savage budget build. got a pre fit barrel from Greg at Southern Precision Rifles. he has some reamer options. this one had a throat at .126". 3000 rds on the barrel now , so it has grown, but it still shoots crazy good. highly recommend Greg at Southern Precision Rifles.

1) Savage 10 action
2) Bartlein barrel
3) Choate tactical stock (only $200!!!)
4) Used Weaver T36 glass
5) cheap UTG rings

only mods were to the stock and trigger. i added the adjustable butt plate/pad for $90 and bedded the recoil lug only. the Choate uses an aluminum V block. i replaced the Accutrigger with a Rifle Basix II

whether you get a 1 in 7, 1 in 8 or 1 in 9 twist, make sure you try the Berger 73gr HPBT bullets. i have used them in a Criterion 1 in 9 bolt rifle, this current rifle, and in a 1 in 7.7 Krieger barreled AR 15. they shoot awesome in all three rifles, but the Bartlein is by far the best, most consistent shooter. the Bartlein loves Varget with these bullets

all 5 @ 100 yds

View attachment 1053200 View attachment 1053201

Swadiver, I have noticed that you have had great luck with these 73’s and the 80.5 fullbores. Curious if you have shot that 77OTM bullets?

 

[swadiver]

i did try the 77 Lapua Scenar L bullets, but never had as much luck with them as the Bergers. but, i only tried one box i won at a Match, so it wasn't an extensive test

 

[BradY]

I know my 8 twist shoots the 55gr sierra soft point game king into silly groups. It does the same with 80gr smk’s too. All depends if your after a varmint rifle or a target rifle. I couldnt get any of the 40 vmax, 40nbt, or 40 blitzking to group in my rifle. The 50’s weren’t much better but the noslers were the best of the bunch. 55’s I couldnt argue with how well these sierras shot and buying them in bulk is a huge saving. Have shot them to 600 yds as well but they dont hold up in the wind as the 80’s. Saying this, with a dedicated target gun on the way again, the next barrel on my 223 will be a 14 twist to spit 40-50gr bullets.

 

[manitou210]

Smith I worked with custom built rifles with 1/8 twist shot okay but the 1/7 outshot with most bullets.
the 1/7 is bye far the best twist for 223 rem with 169 free bore to shoot 80 & 90 gr
Check out Berger twist for 80 + 90g

http://www.bergerbullets.com/products/target-bullets/

You won't shoot groups at 300 y with 1/8 or 1/9 very often but 1/2" at 300 y in good conditions is possible with 1/7

 

[Lefty Trigger]

Ok here's the update and what I bought,... I was originally looking at a Savage "low profile varmint" and that gun comes in either 1:7 or 1:9 twist. Well the deal fell through with my trade in gun so I had to do something different. I ended up selling my trade-in gun outright and ended up buying a Savage 10T-SR. This model is a Cabela's exclusive and comes with a 20moa rail already installed and a 24" threaded (SR suppressor ready) barrel in 1:9 twist and the bolt assembly from the BA series gun. I was not impressed with the "plastic" stock but at least it is the good one with the full aluminum bedding block, Accustock I think they call it. I put a Nikon 24x Black X1000 scope on it and after 4 shots sighting it in today I managed these groups with 3 different powders and Hornady 60gr V-max bullets at 100yds. Weird how the Benchmark powder is 2 inches high?
If anybody has any loads I can try I sure would like the advice......

 

[Idaho-Lefty]

You did,.. real "GOOD", IMO !!! Bed the Recoil Lug, adjust the Trig., check the "free float" for clearance and have,.. FUN !!! The Berger 70-73's will probably be, the most accurate bullets avail for the 1-9 tw, followed by the Sierra 69 gr. SMK and TMK's ! Several people even find that, the 75 grain Horn BTHP bullets shoots, real well, too and ARE,..."CHEAP" at 250 for $40.00 @ Midsouth, always buy, ONE box of 100 first tho, to make sure they "work" for YOUR gun ! Sadly, the 75 gr Amax is a "thing of the past" and the replacement, 75 ELD-M's don't always, "shoot" in a 1-9 tw !
I use, the 60 gr. Bal Tip Nosler's ( for ground squir. etc. ) in my AR-15 and the 65 gr. Sierra Game kings for, Yote's / small Deer,.. BOTH loads, are always, SUB MOA @ 100 yds in a fairly cheap Adams Arms, 16" bbl. 1-7 tw, AR ! The LOAD is; Fed pr's, and 25.7 grains of, Win 748 ( THROWN chg's, in a custom bushing, that I modified for my Lil' Dandy ) those are, near MAX load's and safe, in MY rifle so start about a grain or two LOWER and work up, 3 tenth's of a grain, at a time, to find YOUR accuracy load. MY cartridge OAL is, 2.260 to fit an AR Mag. YOUR COAL could be longer, Remember that, "Jammed" bullets, have MORE chamber pressure and back off on, the powder a bit, when "Jamming" ! Usually, the Berger VLD and RDF Nosler, Secant Ogive "type" bullets need to be Jammed for accuracy ! There are tons of loads/ Bullets available ! We ( son and I ) will be building a .22-250 Ack Imp. 40* with, a 1-9 tw Brux bbl. to shoot some of, the Bullets, I listed. Good Luck, BE,..SAFE and,.. feel free, to ask questions !

 

[Idaho-Lefty]

It looks like you've found some pretty good loads already and you HAVE a "good" Barrel. Keep it COOL with, 3 shots, wait, then, 2 more ! Both Nosler and Sierra, have loads listed for THEIR bullets in the .223 Cal.,.. online.
Hodgdon Powder Co. also has, LOTS of loads online, too.
Remember to carefully watch, your bullet seating COAL. And note the BEARING surface LENGTH of the Bullet you choose, can create MORE pressure ! The longer the B/S, the more Pressure, it creates !

 

[k80skeet]

I really like my 1 in 9 twist LRPV .223 it shoot in in the very low2’s but in the high 1’s most of the time with 69,70,and 73 grains. I am glad I picked the 1 in 9 twist. I couldn’t be happier with it. I have a couple of 6mmbr that have 1 in 8 twist that will shoot all the heavy weights l

 

[k80skeet]

One thing I think that is being overlooked in this thread is the actual "why" all these folks are following the faster twist...I mean, yeah, it's still the old "bigger better faster" thing, but what really gave us the 1-in-7 and why??? Wasn't it the Army?? and didn't they do it because the 5.56 was having a hard time penetrating an enemy helmet at what the Army refers to as it's maximum effective range.
The test was that it had to pierce an 8mm thick steel plate set on a 45 degree angle at 400 meters. Prior to the advent of the SS -109 the M16A1 with ball ammo would not do it. The SS-109 "green tip" round will do it, but I guess they didn't find it reliable enough, not to mention a little expensive to make. It was also notoriously inaccurate...you'd be lucky to hit an enemy helmet at 400 meters with SS-109. The Army has always been known for taking something good and modifying it until it don't work anymore.
Heavier bullets are more reliable to penetrate and I think everyone else just fell in behind the new twist rate because it would shoot heavier bullets and stabilize them further out.
Kind of like taking a 308 with a 1-in-7 twist and shooting 350 grain bullets and calling it an "elephant/long range" rifle. Yeah, okay..........

 

[k80skeet]

My .223 Savage LRPV with a 1 in 9 twist shoots almost everything good from 40gr to 77gr. (under 1/2") the very best load I have for my rifle is a 69gr Sierra Match King with 25.0gr of W748 and Federal 205M primer with the bullet set .005-.0010 off the lands. Remington or Lapua brass doesn't seem to matter. The 70gr Bergers seem to shoot as well and the 73gr Bergers shoot little tiny holes with 24.0gr of W748. I have had quite a few Savage .223's and never saw one that didn't that load well.

 

[Texas10]

Is that five thou IN to one thou off the lands? Might want to try the W748 if it works that well with 69 gr. I'm shooting the 69 Lapua Scenar L with Varget. Still trying to dial it in.

 

[Texas10]

Ok here's the update and what I bought,... I was originally looking at a Savage "low profile varmint" and that gun comes in either 1:7 or 1:9 twist. Well the deal fell through with my trade in gun so I had to do something different. I ended up selling my trade-in gun outright and ended up buying a Savage 10T-SR. This model is a Cabela's exclusive and comes with a 20moa rail already installed and a 24" threaded (SR suppressor ready) barrel in 1:9 twist and the bolt assembly from the BA series gun. I was not impressed with the "plastic" stock but at least it is the good one with the full aluminum bedding block, Accustock I think they call it. I put a Nikon 24x Black X1000 scope on it and after 4 shots sighting it in today I managed these groups with 3 different powders and Hornady 60gr V-max bullets at 100yds. Weird how the Benchmark powder is 2 inches high?
If anybody has any loads I can try I sure would like the advice......

Lefty, give the Hornaday 53 gr V-Max over a stout load of 3031 a try. Shoots very well out of a stock 9 twist Savage 12FV as well as my Criterion 8 twist. Son has recorded a few 5 shot, 100 yd groups in the zero's with this combination. His 12FV in 223 has a EABrown thumbhole stock (bedded), Vortex Crossfire II and cheap Harris bi-pod. Simply amazing in his hands, and he's a complete novice.

Imagine what a tuner would do on your 10T-SR!

 

[moorepower]

A 1-9 will shoot 40-77 grain bullets into bugholes. I am amused that unless you have a 1-7 you can't shoot the 80 grain bullets. When I was shooting highpower, no one shot a 1-7 with the 80 grain bullets. If you need a longer range round for the wind get a 6mmbr and shoot the 105-108 class bullets and it will shoot circles around the .223 in the wind. How in the hell did people hit the broad side of a barn without a 1-7? How did anyone kill a dear with out a Bonded or copper bullet? How can anyone shoot a group under 1" without a 32X scope, and the lists go on and on and on............. IF you are shooting in competition form 600-1000 yards with a .223, by all means get a 1.7, 1-6.5. If your not required to shoot a .223 at those 600-1000 yard targets, build something better for the job. Set by someone shooting a 1-14 twist 6PPC at 300 yards and tell him he needs a 1-7 .223

 

[284winner]

Looking at replacing my 223 rifle with a new Savage 12 LPV with a 26 inch barrel and I can choose between 1:7 or 1:9 twist rates. Locally my range is limited to 300 yds. but I may want to go out to 600+ at other places in the future. Which rate should I go with? I'm thinking the 1:7 to be able to shoot the heavier/longer VLD bullets but are those a good choice for 300 and less yardage??

7 will shoot the 55s, a 9 won't shoot heavier than 69-70s. The 7 will be the wise choice.

 

[Beau]

Shooting heavy-for-twist bullets is really a crap shoot with button rifled barrels.
By "heavy-for-twist" in .223 I mean like 77s in a 9, VLD 80s in an 8 or 90s in a 7. They might shoot good, they might not.

 

[Mark W]

1:9 for me. I don’t care for lobbing heavy bullets with a .223. I have one that’s 1:8 and have never loaded anything heavier than a 69 SMK.

 

[swadiver]

7 will shoot the 55s, a 9 won't shoot heavier than 69-70s. The 7 will be the wise choice.

i had a 1 in 9 Criterion that shot 73 Bergers very well