XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
Don't think so...
From the rules above: Any semi-automatic rifle constructed on an “AR-Style Platform”
New Mid-Range Game for AR's in 2016
- Thread starter DE-F-Open
- Start date
Don't think so...
From the rules above: Any semi-automatic rifle constructed on an “AR-Style Platform”
Dusty Stevens
Shiner
If it allowed m14 types id be in.
hpshooter
Gold $$ Contributor
Me too!
XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
Russ, that is the same problem with the guys with "tactical" 308 "Sniper Rifles" that show up for F class shoots and discover that they are in fact not steely eyed snipers but can barely hit the black with consistency.
Once watched 3 guys show up on the range in Oak Ridge. One with a 308 and 2 with carbine length ARs. I was pulling targets for someone else. They set up 2 targets with shoot n sees and headed out of the pits. I asked who was pulling. They said naaa, we're good. Heard a comment about "if I can't hit that bla bla bla... well, they went back to 600 where we were shooting from. I started hearing impacts in the nimber boards behind the berm. The guy with the 308 was the only one getting over the berm.
They came back down and got really quiet when they started realizing that they had not one hit on the target.
I could see the NRA keeping this as a non-record non-classified class just to get people to come out and shoot, then they get to see people actually shooting service rifles, match rifles and F class and decide to get into the game. There are a lot of people who use any one of a thousand excuses not to come out and compete, but in the end it's because they don't know how or what to do and are reluctant to appear so.
Once watched 3 guys show up on the range in Oak Ridge. One with a 308 and 2 with carbine length ARs. I was pulling targets for someone else. They set up 2 targets with shoot n sees and headed out of the pits. I asked who was pulling. They said naaa, we're good. Heard a comment about "if I can't hit that bla bla bla... well, they went back to 600 where we were shooting from. I started hearing impacts in the nimber boards behind the berm. The guy with the 308 was the only one getting over the berm.
They came back down and got really quiet when they started realizing that they had not one hit on the target.
I could see the NRA keeping this as a non-record non-classified class just to get people to come out and shoot, then they get to see people actually shooting service rifles, match rifles and F class and decide to get into the game. There are a lot of people who use any one of a thousand excuses not to come out and compete, but in the end it's because they don't know how or what to do and are reluctant to appear so.
Dusty Stevens
Shiner
Gotta have a class for everyone- get as many in the game as possible. Very lax equipment restrictions do that then hopefully they get bit enough to ask questions and get in the game. Its hard for a rookie to jump into an equipment race
Keith Glasscock
Gold $$ Contributor
Heck, I'll play. If there's a match, I'm in. I always want to learn new stuff. Maybe I could get the wife and daughter out to play.
I've showed up at a few F-Class matches with a hunting rifle. It's a good way to find out what the combination of rifle and shooter can do at a given distance and conditions under a little pressure. I think most hunters would be more confident and capable after shooting a few F-Class matches with their hunting rifles and loads. I would bet the elk would be in trouble out to any range where the hunter can shoot a 185 or better.
Opening up mid-range matches for ARs is a great idea. I'm not an AR guy myself, but I have lots of shooting friends who are. They tend to have a lot of ideas what their guns are capable of out to 600 yards, but most don't take many opportunities to shoot them at those ranges, and none of the existing High Power disciplines are very appealing. Until now. I hope it doesn't become an equipment race. A 185/200 is a respectable score even with a 12" 10 ring.
I hope everyone is supporting and helps get these guys on the paper and provides positive feedback even for scores that seem modest by F-Class standards.
Opening up mid-range matches for ARs is a great idea. I'm not an AR guy myself, but I have lots of shooting friends who are. They tend to have a lot of ideas what their guns are capable of out to 600 yards, but most don't take many opportunities to shoot them at those ranges, and none of the existing High Power disciplines are very appealing. Until now. I hope it doesn't become an equipment race. A 185/200 is a respectable score even with a 12" 10 ring.
I hope everyone is supporting and helps get these guys on the paper and provides positive feedback even for scores that seem modest by F-Class standards.
I see High Power (incl F-Class) more as a competition with the course and the conditions and myself than with the other shooters that day. Consistently hitting the 9-10 rings at 600 yards is a good accomplishment, especially with factory rifles, hunting rifles, or other gear that is not part of the equipment race.
Is there anything wrong with shooting, getting better, and becoming more skilled with modest equipment? There was an important paper a few years back about taking back the infantry half kilometer. (See: http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA512331&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf ) An equipment race is one way to get there, but lots of practice is probably the better approach. I'm sure shooting 5-10 midrange matches a year with a modest AR, good ammo, and a $400 scope would give a shooter a lot of confidence and skill with modest equipment out to a half kilometer.
Is there anything wrong with shooting, getting better, and becoming more skilled with modest equipment? There was an important paper a few years back about taking back the infantry half kilometer. (See: http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA512331&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf ) An equipment race is one way to get there, but lots of practice is probably the better approach. I'm sure shooting 5-10 midrange matches a year with a modest AR, good ammo, and a $400 scope would give a shooter a lot of confidence and skill with modest equipment out to a half kilometer.
Will a 55gr FMJ stay supersonic at 600 yards out of 16" AR? I have seen some AR's at 600 yd matches that didn't stay supersonic. Not sure what they were shooting. They might need to think about a minimum requirement for ammunition.
Keith Glasscock
Gold $$ Contributor
Yes
To answer your question, I think loads would have to be right near max for 223 rem with the 55 fmj.
My question is whether that is something that we must regulate. Service rifle guys with M1A's regularly hit at subsonic speeds at long range without too many deleterious effects.
We could also be kind to new shooters and introduce the class with a 300 yard match and work our way out while teaching our new friends what it takes to get on and stay on paper at longer ranges.
Yes, it will stay above Mach 1 *if* muzzle velocity is above 3000 under most reasonable conditions (sea level, above 50 F). At 20 F one would have to make 3070 or so.
To answer your question, I think loads would have to be right near max for 223 rem with the 55 fmj.
My question is whether that is something that we must regulate. Service rifle guys with M1A's regularly hit at subsonic speeds at long range without too many deleterious effects.
We could also be kind to new shooters and introduce the class with a 300 yard match and work our way out while teaching our new friends what it takes to get on and stay on paper at longer ranges.
I am all for the new class. I have an 18" AR that I may try. It shoots 77gr FGMM pretty well. I have actually thought about shooting an F Class match with it just to see what it would do.
I think the 300 yd idea has merit.
I've seen simulated F-Class matches shot at 600 yards with 53-55 grain bullets from slow twist 223s and 222s near sea level. Some attention to detail is required in bullet selection and loading. Not every bullet and load is going to work. Ammo from Wal-Mart is a bad bet. Mil-surp ammo and imitations of military loads are a bad bet.
Most ARs these days have fast enough twists for 69-77 grain bullets, and handloading match bullets in this weight range is a good bet for success. Black Hills has several loads in this weight range which would be a good choice for shooters who don't hand load.
I would prefer loads not to be mandated, but it would be a good idea for match announcements to mention that match bullets of 69 grains and heavier tend to work better in 600 yard matches.
I hope they increase the barrel length to 24"...I inherited a Colt HBAR that is a tack driver with select factory ammo. This would be a blast to shoot and as a FTR shooter, I would do this in a heart beat.
I guess this is a poor choice option. I've seen it posted several times, I'd love this for 5.56, but would hate to compete with 7.62x51 in same match at 600y, or worse yet 6.5 creedmoor. I do also know that 300SAUM and 7mmSAUM can be built on a 10 size platform, thus this quickly becomes an equipment game unless one of two rules apply:
Magazine length ammo, and F/TR calibers. (I'd love an AR open to shoot my 7saum and 6.5creedmoor though ;-) )
Barrel length helps to lessen this chance, but I'd quickly see the 5.56 guy shy away when the line is 6.5 Grendel and 6mmAR.
Please lets be kind and get more shooters, and create classes for them that are valid and competitive. I really can't ask a new 5.56 shooter to fall in love with F-class when competition is 6.5mm, 7mm, and 308.
-Mac
Magazine length ammo, and F/TR calibers. (I'd love an AR open to shoot my 7saum and 6.5creedmoor though ;-) )
Barrel length helps to lessen this chance, but I'd quickly see the 5.56 guy shy away when the line is 6.5 Grendel and 6mmAR.
Please lets be kind and get more shooters, and create classes for them that are valid and competitive. I really can't ask a new 5.56 shooter to fall in love with F-class when competition is 6.5mm, 7mm, and 308.
-Mac
R.Morehouse
Gold $$ Contributor
I think keeping it to 556 ( mag length ) and letting you do what you choose with triggers is what I would like to see. A few hundred for a trigger up-grade is way more doable then then a custom Grendel or what have you. The new guy could show with the out of the box MP and have some fun.....Go home and hit Amazon for a trigger and be back next week and be pretty much up to speed with everyone else.........
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