New F-Class 600 Yard Target

[ED3]

If 'too high' scores are a concern, consider an equipment rule change;
eliminate the rear bag, perhaps.

 

[Dos XX]

Or leave it alone. It isn't broke.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

If 'too high' scores are a concern, consider an equipment rule change;
eliminate the rear bag, perhaps.

Rather than eliminate the rear bag, include it in the weight limit. Either the shooter loses the rear bag or reduces weight somewhere else.

 

[kzin]

Or leave it alone. It isn't broke.

not broke /= ideal

But I think we all know you're most likely to get what you're suggesting!

 

[Heman]

What F-T/R experiences is no different than what Palma and Service rifle experience on the sling side. Guys who shoot palma and service rifle, especially service rifle at 1000yd know they have it harder but they do it. Making it easier for T/R, Palma, and Service to get TR lessons the high master accomplishment. You are just making it easier so everyone can get it. When I go to a match and I'm shooting my any rifle if I know there are some HM guys who are palma shooters I know I have my work cut out for me. You don't want to start passing rules for this and that when it isn't broke. That is what your seeing in another governing body for HP as they are making rules because people complain that certain things aren't fair.

EDIT: Actually as a match director and sling shooter I don't understand when running a regional there are separate medals for F-Open and F-T/R where as sling just has one set. Personally I don't think that should be, OR there should be medals available for palma and service if numbers support. For a management standpoint there already is some favor show to the T/R shooters.

 

[kzin]

There is something that is close to broken. It's not that the system sucks but that most of the shoots we go to don't draw enough entries to make the system work.

Ideally the system allows me to shoot against half a dozen other F-TR sharpshooters or experts but that's not ever happening at local level shoots. They're generally going to be one f-class group with the TR guys shooting at a handicap and lower level shooters 'competing' against HMs.

I'm thinking I made a mistake gearing up for TR. If the shoots I go to are effectively f-open only there isn't much point doing it at a handicap.

 

[Erud]

Maybe you should try to just focus on the shooting part, and quit worrying so much about classifications and rifle categories.

 

[kzin]

Maybe you should try to just focus on the shooting part, and quit worrying so much about classifications and rifle categories.

I do that every day a mile from home. And I could do it with an f-open rifle.
When I drive hours to a match I'd prefer a fair playing field.

 

[XTR]

EDIT: Actually as a match director and sling shooter I don't understand when running a regional there are separate medals for F-Open and F-T/R where as sling just has one set. Personally I don't think that should be, OR there should be medals available for palma and service if numbers support. For a management standpoint there already is some favor show to the T/R shooters.

I don't pretend to understand the logic behind the awards in sling shooting.

I can't think of a single major event where at the end of the match an F-TR shooter out agg'd the F-Open winner. I've done it myself, and seen it done by others at the end of one day, but it's always relay induced. I've never seen it holds up for a 2 day agg.

I have a suspicion that the ballistic advantage of the any rifles is not as great compared to the 308 in the hands of comparable HM sling shooters as it is on the smaller F class targets. I may be wrong, but I am pretty sure I've seen Bill Vaughn out shoot the any rifles with a Palma rifle on more than one occasion. (correct me if I'm wrong) As a group the skill of sling crowd in Oak Ridge is about as good as you will see anywhere.

As an F-TR shooter I can tell you that on occasion the awards for F-TR get fracked, and the record shows that after that F-TR shooters don't come back. I know you shoot there from time to time, look at the F-TR attendance at the Oak Ridge regional.

I thing that in part what you see is that F class started more recently, and had a chance to make up a system without the evolution than what you see in sling shooting.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

There is something that is close to broken. It's not that the system sucks but that most of the shoots we go to don't draw enough entries to make the system work.

Ideally the system allows me to shoot against half a dozen other F-TR sharpshooters or experts but that's not ever happening at local level shoots. They're generally going to be one f-class group with the TR guys shooting at a handicap and lower level shooters 'competing' against HMs.

I'm thinking I made a mistake gearing up for TR. If the shoots I go to are effectively f-open only there isn't much point doing it at a handicap.

Our experience is that gentle encouragement can motivate match directors to split them out - separate F-TR from F-Open in the results bulletin. Especially if he need not to have a pay out or award for less than 5 shooters. But my friends and I are still pretty happy if our name is at the top of 4 competitors in the F-TR group. We know who we beat, and we feel that we also beat everyone who stayed home.

This is the time of year to express your thoughts to your favorite match directors, because now is the time they are making plans and submitting programs for NRA approval.

 

[dcali]

At some point, you just have to realize that it's all for bragging rights. I remember shooting a Virginia State Championship years ago that had (going from memory here) about 200 shooters. I think there were just a handful in my Sharpshooter Service Rifle class. You need enormous matches to make that make sense.

F class at least only has two equipment classes, which makes it better. But at the end of the day, if you came in 1st out of 15 or 20 at a club match, great. But it's not something to write home about, especially when the differences at the top are so small that it almost comes down to luck. (Better targets would help here).

 

[kzin]

I only meant to use myself as an example not start a personal whine.

The point is for many of us there is some logical reason to avoid f-tr in favor of f-open thereby contributing to a death spiral for f-tr. Which is then one reason why I don't want to switch.

 

[kzin]

The common posts about 'just shooting' and 'not worrying about where you place' seem to me incompatible with approaching or promoting shooting as a competitive sport.

I can 'just shoot better' at home alone.

 

[XTR]

I only meant to use myself as an example not start a personal whine.

The point is for many of us there is some logical reason to avoid f-tr in favor of f-open thereby contributing to a death spiral for f-tr. Which is then one reason why I don't want to switch.

There is no F-TR death spiral nationally, though there are some places where there is not a balance of F-Open vs F-TR. Tullahoma in TN has way more F-TR shooters, whereas I've been other places, like Oak Ridge that had mostly F-Open. Shoot which ever you want.

Long Range F-TR = Masochism
F-Open = Self Gratification

Mid Range the difficulty is similar. F-Open gets higher X counts.

Your choice.

If you shoot F-Open your scores will be higher, by a few points for most people. But everyone's scores in your class are higher. If you can't read wind the better shooters will still beat you.

To be seriously competitive in either requires a commitment in time and $$.

F-Open takes more $$. In Open You have an initial investment in a rest, which will cost more than a bipod, even an expensive bipod is cheaper than a good rest, but that's a fixed one time cost. The biggest difference is that they eat up barrels at about 3x the rate of F-TR. In F-TR I can plan on 2 yrs from a good barrel even if I'm very active. F-Open you are looking at at least one barrel a yr. Most active shooters aren't going to get 2 yrs from one.

 

[kzin]

At some point, you just have to realize that it's all for bragging rights. I remember shooting a Virginia State Championship years ago that had (going from memory here) about 200 shooters. I think there were just a handful in my Sharpshooter Service Rifle class. You need enormous matches to make that make sense.

F class at least only has two equipment classes, which makes it better. But at the end of the day, if you came in 1st out of 15 or 20 at a club match, great. But it's not something to write home about, especially when the differences at the top are so small that it almost comes down to luck. (Better targets would help here).

Hell you say!

Last week I was #1 of 2 1/2 (other guy shot both relays) and I'm thrilled.

 

[dcali]

I switched from Open to TR (and know others that have as well) because Open has become too much like benchrest in its equipment. The target rings still make sense for midrange TR (at least at 600), and I'd argue that they do not for Open anymore unless it's pretty windy.

I would disagree that they're similar levels of difficulty at 600. It seems that way when you look at the winners (who might be separated by 5 points or so), but overall, Open will give a shooter about 10 points over TR unless it's very calm.

If Open guys insist on improving (ha!), I think we will need different (mid range) targets or the winners will start to look very arbitrary. Of course, that would throw classifications into a mess. But that will sort itself out over time just like it did with the old sling targets.

 

[kzin]

One thing I've thought about is getting an open caliber rifle set up with ftr style stock and gear. For matches with no meaningful tr class I could still practice tr style but not have the ballistic disadvantage. I realize it would then be an open class rifle.

 

[XTR]

I've seen guys shoot their PRS type 6s and 6.5s in mid range F-Open off of a bipod. It's good practice.

 

[Keith Glasscock]

As an open shooter, I am pretty vocal about separating classes. I try to split winnings that I occasionally receive with the high F/TR if they aren’t awarded separately.

For me, I’d rather have the local club matches not give awards at all and put the money back into the program than combine in order to recognize one (usually open) shooter. Instead, let’s just recognize both the high open and high TR shooters. It is about the fun of the sport and bragging rights.

I’m probably in the minority, but that would be my personal preference.

 

[Heman]

Don't get me wrong I'm NOT against separating the T/R from the Open just saying there is already a difference there that you don't see on the sling side when it comes to NRA medals. Why I personally have issue with the need to have 5 to have a seperate class rule. If you have 2 people shooting Service, Palma, T/R or whatever there is that class and you have a winner.

The only thing I have an issue with is changing the classification percentages or targets, this opens up a can of worms as I've said for all of highpower not just the F-class side.