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New Dasher Brass Testing Results

rcw3

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DISCLAIMER - - Some of this report is a bit technical (maybe a bit much so at times) and there are some positive things in this post and some not so positive things in this post - - regardless - - I have tried to be unbiased and honest.


Back toward the end of June, beginning of July, I started testing out the new Norma Dasher brass. I first ran some through a Krieger 30" 1:8" twist Dasher barrel I had on a Barnard action with around 485 rounds through it. The Dasher chamber on that barrel has a "max chamber" dimension of 1.558" and a .115" free bore, but otherwise it is the same dimensionally as the newer Kiff/Shiraz Dasher reamer sold by Bullets.com (i.e. .4708" dia. @ .200" forward of the bolt face, .272" neck dia., same shoulder dia., same head space, etc.). I had to trim the Norma brass for it to fit in that chamber (trimmed it back to 1.550" - ouch hated to trim just about .050" off the cases but had to for that barrel). Truth be told, I was spoiled with Lapua fire formed brass in that barrel - - shove 32 gr. of Varget, RL15, N140 in a case, put a 105-108 gr. bullet on top of that .015" in the lands and usual five shot 100 yard groupings were .3" or so with no neck turning, no brass work, just load it up, go have fun and shoot - - no muss - - no fuss - - real easy, brass lasted 10+ firings, etc.. At 600 yards in 3 x 600 matches shooting prone I shot many a high x count cleans with that. New Norma brass was a different story there - first issue (besides the trimming required) - thick rims - - had to use a different shell holder so I could even get the cases in the press to load them - - which meant I also had to later re-adjust my sizing die lock ring to set the die up correctly - - then the thick rimmed cases got stuck in the extractor of the Barnard action and had to modify the extractor so I could even shoot them in the rifle. OK - - finally I can actually shoot the stuff, then on first firing with a normal load 32 gr. of N140 and a 108 Berger (around 2910 fps out of that barrel) overpressure was apparent and the primer pockets on the brass became much looser after just one firing. All this kind of got me to a "WTF" point - - not what I had expected - - hoping factory Dasher brass would be more of a "plug and play" situation, but things not working out that way. Sorry Shiraz but I was not a "happy camper" and my posts on this forum show it (but in some ways, I feel rightly so - - especially in view of the pre-production sales talk and video relating to this Norma brass).

In the meantime I also purchased one of the new Kiff/Shiraz Dasher reamers off Bullets.com and more brass, and had two barrels chambered up with the newer reamer (i.e. it has a 1.605" max chamber and a .104" freebore). BTW - - the new reamer is one of the nicest reamers I have seen come out of Kiff's shop - - very clean with a good finish, especially for in the throat area - - cut very clean and nice (like what I see with the bore scope). Honestly, the "max chamber" dimension on that new Norma brass Kiff/Shiraz reamer (1.605") is borderline short for firing the Norma brass (around 1.597" OAL) without first having to trim it, but typically Kiff reamers run long on the neck length tolerance (which is +.005") so in my testing I am running the new brass with no initial trimming - - just load it and shoot it - - no muss - - no fuss - - no brass prep - - just pull cases out of the box, prime them, throw the powder charges in them and seat the bullets and go out and shoot the stuff (love it - - no work)!

The barrels (Bartlein 30" 5R 7.5" tw and PacNor 24" Polygon 7.5" tw) were fitted to a Borden tube gun action (Rem 700 clone type) in a repeater tube gun. I currently have the tube gun set up for bench or F-Class shooting right now. With the Borden action, the brass worked out to be 100% "plug and play" as far as loading, extraction and ejection (i.e. no extractor issues on this action with the thick rims). Last night I put the 30" Bartlein barrel on and ran 5 rounds into my bullet trap and cleaned the rifle 2 times (yup - - that's it for "break in" - - Bartlein Barrels really don't typically need any real "break in" anyway IMO - - super premium stuff - - time to go to the range).

Chrono testing with 30" Bartlein - - 5 shot sequences, all with new virgin Norma Dasher brass (no brass prep whatsoever), just "load it and shoot it", Varget powder (thrown charges - not individually weighed), BR-4 primers, Berger 105 VLD (Hunting), .015" in lands:

30 gr. Varget - - 2753 fps MV, 19 ES, 7 SD
31 gr. Varget - - 2843 fps MV, 30 ES, 11 SD
32 gr. Varget - - 2924 fps MV, 10 ES, 4 SD

Considering the virgin brass and charges were all thrown, I am surprised how low the ES and SD numbers were on the above.

Groups were all sub .5 MOA at 100 yards (I know that won't get benchrest shooters excited at all) but with no load work up, absolutely no brass prep, virgin brass, no barrel break in and just "slap it together" ammo and go out and shoot - - that is impressive and something that should raise eyebrows. IMO - - the Dasher has inherent "surgical accuracy" potential and if done right, this new Norma brass can make life real easy, especially for someone who is happy at .5 MOA or better and would rather spend more time shooting and having fun and less at the loading bench. IMO the Dasher is great because it's a smaller more efficient cartridge that is not a "barrel burner" yet can muster some real serious performance, and I expect the new longer necked Dasher brass makes it even better that way.

BIG QUESTION - - how did the virgin brass hold up firing the 32 gr load of Varget? ANSWER: Very well indeed - - I resized the brass and then reprimed it with BR-4 primers and the primer pockets were still tight - - OK now we're getting somewhere. May even be able to run 32.5 gr of Varget in this set up with virgin brass and get up in the 2975 fps range with the 105 gr bullets and still hold brass life without worrying about fire forming or dickering around with the brass.

So that's the report so far - - will post more as I do more testing and shooting.

Robert
 
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Robert,

What do you have an initial opinion on what to attribute the high pressure to on the old barrel?


Chris
 
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DISCLAIMER - - Some of this report is a bit technical (maybe a bit much so at times) and there are some positive things in this post and some not so positive things in this post - - regardless - - I have tried to be unbiased and honest.


Back toward the end of June, beginning of July, I started testing out the new Norma Dasher brass. I first ran some through a Krieger 30" 1:8" twist Dasher barrel I had on a Barnard action with around 485 rounds through it. The Dasher chamber on that barrel has a "max case" dimension of 1.558" and a .115" free bore, but otherwise it is the same dimensionally as the newer Kiff/Shiraz Dasher reamer sold by Bullets.com (i.e. .4708" dia. @ .200" forward of the bolt face, .272" neck dia., same shoulder dia., same head space, etc.). I had to trim the Norma brass for it to fit in that chamber (trimmed it back to 1.550" - ouch hated to trim just about .050" off the cases but had to for that barrel). Truth be told, I was spoiled with Lapua fire formed brass in that barrel - - shove 32 gr. of Varget, RL15, N140 in a case, put a 105-108 gr. bullet on top of that .015" in the lands and usual five shot 100 yard groupings were .3" or so with no neck turning, no brass work, just load it up, go have fun and shoot - - no muss - - no fuss - - real easy, brass lasted 10+ firings, etc.. At 600 yards in 3 x 600 matches shooting prone I shot many a high x count cleans with that. New Norma brass was a different story there - first issue (besides the trimming required) - thick rims - - had to use a different shell holder so I could even get the cases in the press to load them - - which meant I also had to later re-adjust my sizing die lock ring to set the die up correctly - - then the thick rimmed cases got stuck in the extractor of the Barnard action and had to modify the extractor so I could even shoot them in the rifle. OK - - finally I can actually shoot the stuff, then on first firing with a normal load 32 gr. of N140 and a 108 Berger (around 2910 fps out of that barrel) overpressure was apparent and the primer pockets on the brass became much looser after just one firing. All this kind of got me to a "WTF" point - - not what I had expected - - hoping factory Dasher brass would be more of a "plug and play" situation, but things not working out that way. Sorry Shiraz but I was not a "happy camper" and my posts on this forum show it (but in some ways, I feel rightly so - - especially in view of the pre-production sales talk and video relating to this Norma brass).

In the meantime I also purchased one of the new Kiff/Shiraz Dasher reamers off Bullets.com and more brass, and had two barrels chambered up with the newer reamer (i.e. it has a 1.605" max case and a .104" freebore). BTW - - the new reamer is one of the nicest reamers I have seen come out of Kiff's shop - - very clean with a good finish, especially for in the throat area - - cut very clean and nice (like what I see with the bore scope). Honestly, the "max case" dimension on that new Norma brass Kiff/Shiraz reamer (1.605") is borderline short for firing the Norma brass (around 1.597" OAL) without first having to trim it, but typically Kiff reamers run long on the neck length tolerance (which is +.005") so in my testing I am running the new brass with no initial trimming - - just load it and shoot it - - no muss - - no fuss - - no brass prep - - just pull cases out of the box, prime them, throw the powder charges in them and seat the bullets and go out and shoot the stuff (love it - - no work)!

The barrels (Bartlein 30" 5R 7.5" tw and PacNor 24" Polygon 7.5" tw) were fitted to a Borden tube gun action (Rem 700 clone type) in a repeater tube gun. I currently have the tube gun set up for bench or F-Class shooting right now. With the Borden action, the brass worked out to be 100% "plug and play" as far as loading, extraction and ejection (i.e. no extractor issues on this action with the thick rims). Last night I put the 30" Bartlein barrel on and ran 5 rounds into my bullet trap and cleaned the rifle 2 times (yup - - that's it for "break in" - - Bartlein Barrels really don't typically need any real "break in" anyway IMO - - super premium stuff - - time to go to the range).

Chrono testing with 30" Bartlein - - 5 shot sequences, all with new virgin Norma Dasher brass (no brass prep whatsoever), just "load it and shoot it", Varget powder (thrown charges - not individually weighed), BR-4 primers, Berger 105 VLD (Hunting), .015" in lands:

30 gr. Varget - - 2753 fps MV, 19 ES, 7 SD
31 gr. Varget - - 2843 fps MV, 30 ES, 11 SD
32 gr. Varget - - 2924 fps MV, 10 ES, 4 SD

Considering the virgin brass and charges were all thrown, I am surprised how low the ES and SD numbers were on the above.

Groups were all sub .5 MOA at 100 yards (I know that won't get benchrest shooters excited at all) but with no load work up, absolutely no brass prep, virgin brass, no barrel break in and just "slap it together" ammo and go out and shoot - - that is impressive and something that should raise eyebrows. IMO - - the Dasher has inherent "surgical accuracy" potential and if done right, this new Norma brass can make life real easy, especially for someone who is happy at .5 MOA or better and would rather spend more time shooting and having fun and less at the loading bench. IMO the Dasher is great because it's a smaller more efficient cartridge that is not a "barrel burner" yet can muster some real serious performance, and I expect the new longer necked Dasher brass makes it even better that way.

BIG QUESTION - - how did the virgin brass hold up firing the 32 gr load of Varget? ANSWER: Very well indeed - - I resized the brass and then reprimed it with BR-4 primers and the primer pockets were still tight - - OK now we're getting somewhere. May even be able to run 32.5 gr of Varget in this set up with virgin brass and get up in the 2975 fps range with the 105 gr bullets and still hold brass life without worrying about fire forming or dickering around with the brass.

So that's the report so far - - will post more as I do more testing and shooting.

Robert

And what did you resize with? Have not heard of anyone providing a FL sizing die yet.
Also, good report .

Gary C.
 
And what did you resize with? Have not heard of anyone providing a FL sizing die yet.
Also, good report .

Gary C.
Using the Redding custom 6mm Dasher dies we stock and sell - - they were originally spec'd for a chamber that was dimensionally to the Kiff/Shiraz reamer dimensions (i.e. .4708" at .200" forward of bolt face, .460" shoulder dia., etc.). The extra neck length of the new brass presents no issue because the neck bushing is plenty deep enough to handle the extra length.
 
Thanks for the information. Enjoyed reading of your skills and experience with reamers and making things work.
 
Robert,

What do you have an initial opinion on what to attribute the high pressure to on the old barrel?


Chris
Cannot speak to that right now as the N140 load is still good with the Lapua brass in the other barrel and have not tried the N140 load in this barrel. Just a personal observation - - the Norma brass seems to be not as forgiving pressure wise, so the issue may be more one of needing to either (1) shooting a bit more moderate loads across the board; or (2) being very diligent on working up loads as far as finding specific combos (powders, lot #'s, etc.) that get you where you need to be.

BTW - Other than the issues noted in my initial post, I will say that Norma Dasher brass is some of the nicest factory brass I have seen as far as being dimensionally consistent and well finished. OAL, weight, neck diameter is very consistent. Brass mouths are nicely and cleanly deburred and if you just load the brass up out of the box, the neck tension is good (not too heavy or light) and also real consistent. For "out of the box" brass to "load and shoot", it's a 1st class product.
 
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Good to hear. I haven't ordered my dies or a barrel yet. Have been on the fence but we are starting to see some groups and SDs I'd be happy with for my kind-of shooting.

Appreciate the report.
 
FWIW - had a typo in initial posting - - corrected it now but some of the quotes of my original post may still have the typo - - mistakenly said "max case" in some places where I should have said "max chamber" - - my apologies.
 
Robert, great report.
My findings have been good as well. I loaded up 25 rds of 88gr. Bergers in 25 cases for my load work up with IMR 8208XBR powder.
Trimmed to 1.550" lenght
34-35grs. of powder (8208) settled on 34.6
205match primers
88gr. seated .020 from the lands
These cases have been shot over 20 times, annealed after 15
Primer pockets are all tight, 35 hrs. showed slight chartering, so I stopped there.
Seems they are going to be excellent !!

Since you did the aid work up in the Berger manual, why is there no loads for small than 95 gr. Bullets? Or other powders? Like imr 4064, 8208, imr4320-4350...

Just wandering...
 
So Robert... Your initial postings on brass life were wrong?

Not at all - - 32 gr of N140 with a Berger 108 in the lands .015" with new Norma brass definitely opened up the primer pockets with just one firing in that Krieger barrel (and on a fair number of cases too - - ouch, at over $1 each per case that was an expensive trip to the range). I will try the same load in the Bartlein and let you know how it goes - - so far 32 gr of Varget in the Bartlein 5R barrel with a 105 VLD in the lands is o.k.

Some difference factors right away -

108 Bergers are a more "horsey" bullet (i.e. heavier with a longer bearing surface and a thick jacket) and harder to get up and going and through the lands than a Berger 105 VLD (Hunting) that is lighter, with a thinner jacket and a shorter bearing surface; and

4 groove Krieger vs 5R Bartlein - - IMO, I always felt 5R barrels were a little easier pressure wise - - no specific scientific data that I have on this - just observation from a lot of test firing and chronographing a whole lot of different cartridges out of different barrels that seems to confirm that to me. Broughton 5C button barrels and Schneider 5P barrels had a similar reputation for being easier pressure wise and same with Bartlein 5R's (and I have them all and have shot them all) - - I won't say that as a "take it to the bank" fact, but I believe it is generally so.

With the Lapua brass, it was never an issue before for me, choice of barrel, land and groove configuration didn't seem to matter - - in fact, in my prior Dashers and BRXs I have had all 4 groove cut rifle barrels (Krieger and Brux) except for the two barrels I just had chambered up for this new Norma Dasher brass (Bartlein 5R and Pac Nor 5P).
 
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So Robert... Your initial postings on brass life were wrong?

Follow up test results for Lloydx2

Lloydx2

I shot the same new Norma Dasher brass load today in the 30" Bartlein 5R barrel with the exact load that was problematic in the Krieger barrel and "no dice" - - out of 5 shots, one primer pocket was toast on the first firing and two others were noticeably looser - - the load was with the new virgin Norma Dasher brass, 32 gr. of N140, BR-4 primers, Berger 108 BT bullets, in the lands .015" (and this is with the newer Norma chamber that is longer). For hoo ha's I chronographed some of the N140 loads with the Berger 108 and here's what I got (all loads thrown so ES and SD numbers are a little high on some strings):

30 gr N140, BR-4 primer, Berger 108 BT, in lands .015" 2739=MV, ES=20, SD=9
31 gr N140, BR-4 primer, Berger 108 BT, in lands .015" 2809=MV, ES=36, SD=13
32 gr N140, BR-4 primer, Berger 108 BT, in lands .015" 2904=MV, ES=32, SD=12 (excess pressure)

COMMENT: All 5 cases with the 32 gr load manifested an exprint on the back of the case where brass squeezed back into the plunger ejector opening of the Borden Action's bolt - - then when the bolt was opened, there was about a 1/4 shear off of that squeeze back brass leaving a visual image like a waxing or waning crescent moon on the back of the brass (i.e. a definite high pressure sign).
This load was a no problem "go to" load for me with Lapua brass with various Dasher barrels over the years - - the virgin Norma brass is not good with this amount of pressure - - need to go to other combos.

FWIW - - check out the thread here on this forum on MR-2000 powder in the Dasher - - I just posted chrono results for testing that - - 3000 fps with 105 Hybrids and no excess pressure!
 
I just found it alarming that at 2900 You were losing primer pockets
with any barrel - bullet combo that worked with Lapua cases
My first loadings with both re-15 and varget 105 hybrid @ 2980 looked good
This was with original Dan Dowling print (Kiff world record) The freebore
was lengthened to .130 and neck opened up to .272 with 1.555 chamber length
Trimmed to 1.550. This is should be identical to your JGS reamer print?
The barrel was a Krieger 4 groove 1-8 #15 palma
 
I just found it alarming that at 2900 You were losing primer pockets
with any barrel - bullet combo
My first loadings with both re-15 and varget 105 hybrid @ 2980 looked good
This was with original Dan Dowling print (Kiff world record) The freebore
was lengthened to .130 and neck opened up to .272 I trimmed brass to 1.550.
1.555 chamber length This is should be identical to your JGS reamer print?
The barrel was a krieger
4 groove 1-8 #15 palma
 
I just found it alarming that at 2900 You were losing primer pockets
with any barrel - bullet combo
My first loadings with both re-15 and varget 105 hybrid @ 2980 looked good
This was with original Dan Dowling print (Kiff world record) The freebore
was lengthened to .130 and neck opened up to .272 I trimmed brass to 1.550.
1.555 chamber length This is should be identical to your JGS reamer print?
The barrel was a krieger
4 groove 1-8 #15 palma
What was the load that you are losing primer pockets new brass once fired what sequence of firing.
 
If you are asking about my posting above it was virgin new Norma Dasher brass.
okay what powder charge if was n140 my bad that stuff is pretty hot in a lot of stuff I have tested that's why I throwed it away I have at least 18 firings on my brass granted I have not exceeded 2980fps my primer pockets are useable great no, not good as the lapua in my heavy gun they are very snug pockets in it.
 
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Robert, great report.
My findings have been good as well. I loaded up 25 rds of 88gr. Bergers in 25 cases for my load work up with IMR 8208XBR powder.
Trimmed to 1.550" lenght
34-35grs. of powder (8208) settled on 34.6
205match primers
88gr. seated .020 from the lands
These cases have been shot over 20 times, annealed after 15
Primer pockets are all tight, 35 hrs. showed slight chartering, so I stopped there.
Seems they are going to be excellent !!

Since you did the aid work up in the Berger manual, why is there no loads for small than 95 gr. Bullets? Or other powders? Like imr 4064, 8208, imr4320-4350...

Just wandering...


Tried this load. Way to hot for my 8 twist, same exact load blew the primer way to much pressure. 1 1/2 grains less works ok. Got to be careful loading up someones data as always.
 
Tried this load. Way to hot for my 8 twist, same exact load blew the primer way to much pressure. 1 1/2 grains less works ok. Got to be careful loading up someones data as always.



This was my first HBN load, since I wanted to try it, and have plenty of both on hand...

Since there isn't any load data for the Berger 88gr bullets, nor the IMR 8208XBR powder, I started at 32gr. I worked up .3 gr increments to pressure signs in my Borden action. 35grs. showed chartering with CCI 450 primers, so I stopped there. Finding my best group at 34.5 gr. Then I switched primers, 7 1/2, CCI BR, CCI 400,Fed. match, and Win SR.
Finding the Fed. Match gave me best results, I did blow a win primer, and cratered CCI400 primers. +/- .1gr to fine tune. 3300fps, HBN coated 88gr. Bergers, with 34.6 gr. of imr 8208 in my dasher using the Norma brass.

Hence the question, why isn't there any load data for smaller varmint bullets, and different powders that are sitting on shelves n stores with dust on them???
 

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