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DISCLAIMER - - Some of this report is a bit technical (maybe a bit much so at times) and there are some positive things in this post and some not so positive things in this post - - regardless - - I have tried to be unbiased and honest.
Back toward the end of June, beginning of July, I started testing out the new Norma Dasher brass. I first ran some through a Krieger 30" 1:8" twist Dasher barrel I had on a Barnard action with around 485 rounds through it. The Dasher chamber on that barrel has a "max chamber" dimension of 1.558" and a .115" free bore, but otherwise it is the same dimensionally as the newer Kiff/Shiraz Dasher reamer sold by Bullets.com (i.e. .4708" dia. @ .200" forward of the bolt face, .272" neck dia., same shoulder dia., same head space, etc.). I had to trim the Norma brass for it to fit in that chamber (trimmed it back to 1.550" - ouch hated to trim just about .050" off the cases but had to for that barrel). Truth be told, I was spoiled with Lapua fire formed brass in that barrel - - shove 32 gr. of Varget, RL15, N140 in a case, put a 105-108 gr. bullet on top of that .015" in the lands and usual five shot 100 yard groupings were .3" or so with no neck turning, no brass work, just load it up, go have fun and shoot - - no muss - - no fuss - - real easy, brass lasted 10+ firings, etc.. At 600 yards in 3 x 600 matches shooting prone I shot many a high x count cleans with that. New Norma brass was a different story there - first issue (besides the trimming required) - thick rims - - had to use a different shell holder so I could even get the cases in the press to load them - - which meant I also had to later re-adjust my sizing die lock ring to set the die up correctly - - then the thick rimmed cases got stuck in the extractor of the Barnard action and had to modify the extractor so I could even shoot them in the rifle. OK - - finally I can actually shoot the stuff, then on first firing with a normal load 32 gr. of N140 and a 108 Berger (around 2910 fps out of that barrel) overpressure was apparent and the primer pockets on the brass became much looser after just one firing. All this kind of got me to a "WTF" point - - not what I had expected - - hoping factory Dasher brass would be more of a "plug and play" situation, but things not working out that way. Sorry Shiraz but I was not a "happy camper" and my posts on this forum show it (but in some ways, I feel rightly so - - especially in view of the pre-production sales talk and video relating to this Norma brass).
In the meantime I also purchased one of the new Kiff/Shiraz Dasher reamers off Bullets.com and more brass, and had two barrels chambered up with the newer reamer (i.e. it has a 1.605" max chamber and a .104" freebore). BTW - - the new reamer is one of the nicest reamers I have seen come out of Kiff's shop - - very clean with a good finish, especially for in the throat area - - cut very clean and nice (like what I see with the bore scope). Honestly, the "max chamber" dimension on that new Norma brass Kiff/Shiraz reamer (1.605") is borderline short for firing the Norma brass (around 1.597" OAL) without first having to trim it, but typically Kiff reamers run long on the neck length tolerance (which is +.005") so in my testing I am running the new brass with no initial trimming - - just load it and shoot it - - no muss - - no fuss - - no brass prep - - just pull cases out of the box, prime them, throw the powder charges in them and seat the bullets and go out and shoot the stuff (love it - - no work)!
The barrels (Bartlein 30" 5R 7.5" tw and PacNor 24" Polygon 7.5" tw) were fitted to a Borden tube gun action (Rem 700 clone type) in a repeater tube gun. I currently have the tube gun set up for bench or F-Class shooting right now. With the Borden action, the brass worked out to be 100% "plug and play" as far as loading, extraction and ejection (i.e. no extractor issues on this action with the thick rims). Last night I put the 30" Bartlein barrel on and ran 5 rounds into my bullet trap and cleaned the rifle 2 times (yup - - that's it for "break in" - - Bartlein Barrels really don't typically need any real "break in" anyway IMO - - super premium stuff - - time to go to the range).
Chrono testing with 30" Bartlein - - 5 shot sequences, all with new virgin Norma Dasher brass (no brass prep whatsoever), just "load it and shoot it", Varget powder (thrown charges - not individually weighed), BR-4 primers, Berger 105 VLD (Hunting), .015" in lands:
30 gr. Varget - - 2753 fps MV, 19 ES, 7 SD
31 gr. Varget - - 2843 fps MV, 30 ES, 11 SD
32 gr. Varget - - 2924 fps MV, 10 ES, 4 SD
Considering the virgin brass and charges were all thrown, I am surprised how low the ES and SD numbers were on the above.
Groups were all sub .5 MOA at 100 yards (I know that won't get benchrest shooters excited at all) but with no load work up, absolutely no brass prep, virgin brass, no barrel break in and just "slap it together" ammo and go out and shoot - - that is impressive and something that should raise eyebrows. IMO - - the Dasher has inherent "surgical accuracy" potential and if done right, this new Norma brass can make life real easy, especially for someone who is happy at .5 MOA or better and would rather spend more time shooting and having fun and less at the loading bench. IMO the Dasher is great because it's a smaller more efficient cartridge that is not a "barrel burner" yet can muster some real serious performance, and I expect the new longer necked Dasher brass makes it even better that way.
BIG QUESTION - - how did the virgin brass hold up firing the 32 gr load of Varget? ANSWER: Very well indeed - - I resized the brass and then reprimed it with BR-4 primers and the primer pockets were still tight - - OK now we're getting somewhere. May even be able to run 32.5 gr of Varget in this set up with virgin brass and get up in the 2975 fps range with the 105 gr bullets and still hold brass life without worrying about fire forming or dickering around with the brass.
So that's the report so far - - will post more as I do more testing and shooting.
Robert
Back toward the end of June, beginning of July, I started testing out the new Norma Dasher brass. I first ran some through a Krieger 30" 1:8" twist Dasher barrel I had on a Barnard action with around 485 rounds through it. The Dasher chamber on that barrel has a "max chamber" dimension of 1.558" and a .115" free bore, but otherwise it is the same dimensionally as the newer Kiff/Shiraz Dasher reamer sold by Bullets.com (i.e. .4708" dia. @ .200" forward of the bolt face, .272" neck dia., same shoulder dia., same head space, etc.). I had to trim the Norma brass for it to fit in that chamber (trimmed it back to 1.550" - ouch hated to trim just about .050" off the cases but had to for that barrel). Truth be told, I was spoiled with Lapua fire formed brass in that barrel - - shove 32 gr. of Varget, RL15, N140 in a case, put a 105-108 gr. bullet on top of that .015" in the lands and usual five shot 100 yard groupings were .3" or so with no neck turning, no brass work, just load it up, go have fun and shoot - - no muss - - no fuss - - real easy, brass lasted 10+ firings, etc.. At 600 yards in 3 x 600 matches shooting prone I shot many a high x count cleans with that. New Norma brass was a different story there - first issue (besides the trimming required) - thick rims - - had to use a different shell holder so I could even get the cases in the press to load them - - which meant I also had to later re-adjust my sizing die lock ring to set the die up correctly - - then the thick rimmed cases got stuck in the extractor of the Barnard action and had to modify the extractor so I could even shoot them in the rifle. OK - - finally I can actually shoot the stuff, then on first firing with a normal load 32 gr. of N140 and a 108 Berger (around 2910 fps out of that barrel) overpressure was apparent and the primer pockets on the brass became much looser after just one firing. All this kind of got me to a "WTF" point - - not what I had expected - - hoping factory Dasher brass would be more of a "plug and play" situation, but things not working out that way. Sorry Shiraz but I was not a "happy camper" and my posts on this forum show it (but in some ways, I feel rightly so - - especially in view of the pre-production sales talk and video relating to this Norma brass).
In the meantime I also purchased one of the new Kiff/Shiraz Dasher reamers off Bullets.com and more brass, and had two barrels chambered up with the newer reamer (i.e. it has a 1.605" max chamber and a .104" freebore). BTW - - the new reamer is one of the nicest reamers I have seen come out of Kiff's shop - - very clean with a good finish, especially for in the throat area - - cut very clean and nice (like what I see with the bore scope). Honestly, the "max chamber" dimension on that new Norma brass Kiff/Shiraz reamer (1.605") is borderline short for firing the Norma brass (around 1.597" OAL) without first having to trim it, but typically Kiff reamers run long on the neck length tolerance (which is +.005") so in my testing I am running the new brass with no initial trimming - - just load it and shoot it - - no muss - - no fuss - - no brass prep - - just pull cases out of the box, prime them, throw the powder charges in them and seat the bullets and go out and shoot the stuff (love it - - no work)!
The barrels (Bartlein 30" 5R 7.5" tw and PacNor 24" Polygon 7.5" tw) were fitted to a Borden tube gun action (Rem 700 clone type) in a repeater tube gun. I currently have the tube gun set up for bench or F-Class shooting right now. With the Borden action, the brass worked out to be 100% "plug and play" as far as loading, extraction and ejection (i.e. no extractor issues on this action with the thick rims). Last night I put the 30" Bartlein barrel on and ran 5 rounds into my bullet trap and cleaned the rifle 2 times (yup - - that's it for "break in" - - Bartlein Barrels really don't typically need any real "break in" anyway IMO - - super premium stuff - - time to go to the range).
Chrono testing with 30" Bartlein - - 5 shot sequences, all with new virgin Norma Dasher brass (no brass prep whatsoever), just "load it and shoot it", Varget powder (thrown charges - not individually weighed), BR-4 primers, Berger 105 VLD (Hunting), .015" in lands:
30 gr. Varget - - 2753 fps MV, 19 ES, 7 SD
31 gr. Varget - - 2843 fps MV, 30 ES, 11 SD
32 gr. Varget - - 2924 fps MV, 10 ES, 4 SD
Considering the virgin brass and charges were all thrown, I am surprised how low the ES and SD numbers were on the above.
Groups were all sub .5 MOA at 100 yards (I know that won't get benchrest shooters excited at all) but with no load work up, absolutely no brass prep, virgin brass, no barrel break in and just "slap it together" ammo and go out and shoot - - that is impressive and something that should raise eyebrows. IMO - - the Dasher has inherent "surgical accuracy" potential and if done right, this new Norma brass can make life real easy, especially for someone who is happy at .5 MOA or better and would rather spend more time shooting and having fun and less at the loading bench. IMO the Dasher is great because it's a smaller more efficient cartridge that is not a "barrel burner" yet can muster some real serious performance, and I expect the new longer necked Dasher brass makes it even better that way.
BIG QUESTION - - how did the virgin brass hold up firing the 32 gr load of Varget? ANSWER: Very well indeed - - I resized the brass and then reprimed it with BR-4 primers and the primer pockets were still tight - - OK now we're getting somewhere. May even be able to run 32.5 gr of Varget in this set up with virgin brass and get up in the 2975 fps range with the 105 gr bullets and still hold brass life without worrying about fire forming or dickering around with the brass.
So that's the report so far - - will post more as I do more testing and shooting.
Robert
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