New Compact LabRadar at NRA Exhibits.

[hoz53]

Very true!!! But, if we use all the tools available at the beginning of load development, the shooter can spend less time in fine tuning for down range where environmental forces have a greater impact!!! Here is the deal, I understand frequency, wave form, harmonics (constructive and destructive), and nodes and their associated mathematics!!! I also understand the forces in rotation dynamics, thermodynamics (study of heat which is the bases for internal ballistic), physical chemistry (solid fuel to plasma gas combustion reaction inside the case), mechanics (Newtonian physics), fluid mechanics (air is a fluid of lower density), and a reloader, shooter for 50 years!!! I wanted to be a ballistician but the military was downsizing and centralizing all the testing grounds and labs in the early 70s!!! There were more professionals in that field than jobs!! I choose engineering instead!!!

Since I'm retired, I'm going to do the research I never got to do!!! I'm going to make do with the tools I have and knowledge is the key!!! I have several hypothesis that need testing and data collection, statistics, and probability analysis in order to make a case for theories!!! I'm going to start getting an understanding of bullet stability passing through the hot, high density, and high pressure strata cloud, in front of and around the muzzle, of gases caused by 1) compressed air shoved out of the barrel in front of the bullet like a piston 2) hot and high speed bypass gases in the barrel/bullet boundary mixing and adding to the compressed cloud 3) the faster than the bullet hot plasma ejection mixing with the cloud!! My hypothesis is a balanced bullet (center of mass located close to the middle of the bullet) should stabilize (minimize torque induced tipping or upsetting) better than an offset bullet (center of mass located more towards the tip or base)!! Basically, Im looking at the torque differences from the center of mass and deltas (differences) of frontal areas causing drag and the harmonics!! It could also achieve stability faster in it's flight in a normal environment and may hit down range faster!!! If the hypothesis is correct, it could minimize down range tuning!!! If the bullet can stabilize faster in that cloud, it could also dampen or buffer harmonics caused by radial forces and/or converging mach cones (high and low pressure fluxes) in the much lower density environment (surroundings in thermodynamics)!!!

With the new LRLX, I could use the older LR in tandem with the new LX and collect twice as much data and have a better confirmation of valid data!!! This would dramatically aid in deriving the theory!!!

and dont forget to report to us what happens when a bullet hits/get hits by a rain drop Bill. i have been wondering about that

 

[Ajwilly96]

I’ve been using a LR Lite for a little over a year now. It started acting weird and wouldn’t trigger a few weekends ago. My dad was upset that it dropped most of his shots on a new gun so he went and bought a garmin.

The garmin is just awesome. You mash the okay button a few times and place it facing the general direction of the target.

I was using it with a XP-100 where is was about 3in from the muzzle (it says it has to be 5-15) and it was still picking up velocity. Out of 55 shots it picked up all 55.

I don’t think there’s any features that LR could come out with that would make me want their new unit. Same price as a garmin and lifetime warranty? Maybe but even then it’s a stretch

 

[nakneker]

I bought and tried a Garmin. Never missed a shot, so easy to use. Two weeks later I had sold my LR and my Magneto, absolutely no regrets.

A guy has a lot of choices now days, like whiskey, get what you like.

 

[rijndael]

I had my Garmin mounted on a 150mm Arca rail / mount and it missed a few shots, maybe 2 or 3 out of 50. I switched it to a 200mm rail and it's now 100%. I think being too close to the bore centerline obscures some of it's downrange view.

 

[moondog]

I started with a CED Chrony, then got a Magneto speed which I was happy with till it broke. Now the Garmin. I only ever used them to get initial velocity and es for preliminary load development. Sometimes to see small changes with primers, jam vs jump, neck tension, etc. None of them EVER made my gun shoot smaller. None of them EVER gave me a number that actually matched what I see a distance. I use it, it's a fun tool with good info but, truing down range is the only way to get a valuable velocity. Best tool I ever got for load development is a Shotmarker.

 

[Wild Bill IV]

@Wild Bill IV, biggest difference I've found in looking into the technology and a DIY approach, Garmin is 24ghz and LR is 60ghz. Interpolation to a 3fps resolution, even with Garmin's 20x24 degree cone of influence would require significantly more "zero padding" than LR at the higher frequency. Please correct me if I am wrong, but the way I've read the data, that is what seems to be happening.

Fast14riot:
The 60GHz for the LR is the processor clock speed, not the triggered radio transmission bandwidth frequency range of 24.080 - 24.168GHz with 8MHz outside interference step settings (5 fine tuned frequencies)!! I suspect this is the same bandwidth for law enforce radar guns where the range of transmission is less than a mile!!! There are band widths for AM radio (Amplitude Modulated 535-1605kHz), FM radio (Frequency Modulated 88-108MHz), weather Doppler radar (8-12GHz), military radar, HAMM radio, military radio, commercial two way radio, walkie talkies, etc!!! These bandwidths are set to eliminate signal interference!!! Just like FINE TUNING eliminates interference of other Doppler radars at the range!!!

YEAH people, signal strength and waveform are used for different purposes!!! Radio wave is light (invisible to the human eye) in the color spectrum.
Your phone signal is in the microwave light in the spectrum with the G denoting assigned bandwidths with different fine tuning specific frequency for every phone!!! And yes, your microwave oven cooks with light just like infrared stoves (another light in the color spectrum)!! Those microwave ovens have a set bandwidth too just like the IR stoves!!!! Laser is yet another light in the color spectrum with some frequencies being in the visible color spectrum)!!!

HEY PEOPLE, THIS IS THE STUDY OF LIGHT CALL OPTICS IN PHYSICS!! We also studied the telescope (microscopes, rifle scopes, binoculars, etc are telescopes), cameras (f-stop, aperature, etc ), prisms, mirrors, and lenses!!!

I hope this is useful information for some in the forum!!!

Bill
Aim Small, Hit Big!!!!

 

[Wild Bill IV]

and dont forget to report to us what happens when a bullet hits/get hits by a rain drop Bill. i have been wondering about that

Different density than air!!! The straight head-on collision impact would create a sudden drag, slowing the bullet's V a little!! 1) Drag changed the bullet velocity!!

Not only did the different momentums in the head on collision slow the bullet, it also caused more friction in the rotational surface cause a change in the rotational inertia!! That little sudden change caused torque which opposed that fictional force!! That torque would tip the bullet's rotational axis!!
2)The frictional force of the water on the bullets surface would tip the bullets CL axis!!

That rain drop is falling straight down for this scenario!! That droplet has inertia (momentum) and is at 29 f/s (terminal velocity) downward (Vector pointing down)!! That droplet vector will shove the bullet down!!! Think sectional density!!!
3) Collision downward would push the bullet flight path downward!!!

The total effect of the bullet/raindrop collision would be the vector sums of 1)-3)!!!!

In reality, not knowing bullet RPM before the collision, V at the time of collision, mass of the bullet, SD (Sectional Density), droplet mass or volume, I'm going to make an educated guess!!! It would be like a Semi hitting a dear!!!! If that collision occurred within the 1st hundred yards, it would, not could, open impact at long range!!!

I'm going to tackle this problem with brut force physics and math just to get a rough idea of what is happening and it will be close, but not exact!!! We have the perfect rain droplet falling straight down and having a VECTOR at 180°, or 3), and a bullet traveling perfectly horizontal having a VECTOR at 90°, ie 1)!! Using a 2 body collision model (Conservation of Momentum), the trig results are around 0.075 MOA bullet deflection with a 150gr bullet traveling 2500f/s and medium or average droplet size of 3.5mm diameter at 29f/s (Term V)!!! Now the big droplet of 7mm diameter (hail soon to follow if more heat is sucked into the cell) would deflect that bullet 0.75 MOA!! Hit 10 of those bad boys and it could deflect more than 7.5 MOA!! Why are we out shooting in this shit??? In snow, mist, light rain with small droplets, just chance the humidity and temperature settings in your ballistic calculators!!

Keep in mind, you have to establish where the collusion occurred and know the remaining distance of flight to the target in order to calculate how much deflection will occur on the target!! Adjustments in velocity lost at collision must be used to finish the remaining distance to the target!!! Medium droplet at the muzzle and target range of 100yd would deflect 0.075"!! If collusion occurred at 50yd, deflect would be 0.035". 75yd, 0.018"!! 1 foot from target, assume 0 deflection!!! Just multiple by 10 for 1000yd!!! These figures are within 10% scientific error (probability, not statistical)!!!

BILL
AIM SMALL, HIT BIG!!!!

 

[hogpatrol]

TMI

 

[Rocketvapor]

"The 60GHz for the LR is the processor clock speed"
WRONG

Does ANYONE have the FCC Type Approval Number for the LR-LX?
It should be printed on the box.

Someone was talking about rain drops?
Here's some 88's from a 22 Nosler, muzzle velocity about 2950fps, one inch dots.
No math, just my results @ 100yds in the rain.
Image quality was poor in the rain. Used a FZ80 camera.

 

[GotRDid]

Wouldn’t the shock wave tend to deflect rain drops at supersonic speeds?

Bullet Flight Video Reveals Shock Wave and Bullet Base Drag « Daily Bulletin

Ever wondered what the air around a moving supersonic bullet really looks like? Check out this video from the Bryan Litz Ballistics Facebook page. This is a Schlieren video* of a 6mm 109gr Berger LRHT bullet at about 2800 fps as fired from Francis Colon's PRS rifle at t...

bulletin.accurateshooter.com

 

[Rocketvapor]

Rain drops probably are pushing on the shock wave.
Just like a cross wind, only denser.

 

[Wild Bill IV]

The shock wave starts at the very tip!! A head on collusion would affect the shock wave!!! The shock wave is nothing more than air at higher pressure (higher density) Bernoulli's principle!! For a few micro seconds, that shock wave converges with really high press pressure rapidly creating drag momentarily!!

 

[Wild Bill IV]

"The 60GHz for the LR is the processor clock speed"
WRONG

Does ANYONE have the FCC Type Approval Number for the LR-LX?
It should be printed on the box.

Someone was talking about rain drops?
Here's some 88's from a 22 Nosler, muzzle velocity about 2950fps, one inch dots.
No math, just my results @ 100yds in the rain.
Image quality was poor in the rain. Used a FZ80 camera.
View attachment 1557998

This is for the older model LR!!! Made in Canada and complies with Class B digital devices pursuant to part 15 of the FCC Rules, page 2 of the manual!!!
Page 7, section 3 Specifications. See attached file and note Frequency range of operation!!! This is the triggered Doppler radar (Radio wave) transmitting frequency band 24.080-24.168 GHz with the 5 fine tuned frequencies with 8GHz intervals!!!

I've had micro processor programming which is needed for robotics!!! This is the machine language which the OS uses!!! Commands for input/Output from the processor to the buffer!!! Uses hexadecimal numbering and storage locations in the buffer!!! The OS system converts those hexadecimal numbers into key codes and decimal number!!! You need at lease 2 times more clock speed to utilize that 24GHz signal!! This gives you 4 binary commands (signal on, off, on off,) in 2 pulses of the clock with one pulse of the signal!!

60GHz (6 binary commands between radio pulses) is plenty fast enough for input and output!!! And, the FCC Radio bandwidth for these radar is around that 24GHz frequency!!

Now, I have shot in the moderate rain and seen slight defections!!! Nice thing about 100%H2O is bullet stability improves with a slight drop of the group at 100 due to higher drag!!! In the moderate shower scenario, the droplet were .5 - 2mm diameters!! The deflection was a 0.025 MOA increase compared to dry air groups!!! That small frontal area of the 22cal are smaller than some of the average sized droplets!!! In a very light shower your probability of hitting raindrops is really low!!! And a direct hit might not happen!!! The probability increase as the rain come down heavier and heavier and the range size of the droplets get bigger and bigger!! Now, shoot in a downpour!!! 7mm is about as big as it gets before it starts to hail here in Kansas!! Although, low sea level elevation can produce 9mm!!! If you hit marble sized hail, it will deflect really noticeable or possible fragment the bullet!! If it survives, it will print worse than a badly pull shot!!

How did your rain groups compare to dry day fired groups??? Need to look at the Apples and the Oranges to make a claim!!

 

[Rocketvapor]

I think your posted page is the original LR.
Note the 6AA batteries listed.
This is the FCC approval listing :FCC-LABRADAR.

FCC ID PDG-LABRADAR

fcc.report

The transmitted F is 24Ghz.
The transmitted frequency of the LR LX is 60 GHZ.
A 60Ghz processor speed would be state of the art Quantum processor.
Here is a 6GHZ processor, sort of state of the art,

https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/intel-core-i9-13900ks-cpu-review

What is the FCC approval number for the LX?
Probably this page https://fcc.report/FCC-ID/PDG-LABRADARLX
Application Details Not Loaded Yet...Exhibits Not Loaded Yet...
Initial data probably withheld for 90 days.
The signal being processed is the Doppler DIFFERENCE between Transmitted and Received signals.
Not the 24GHZ or 60GHZ signal.

My rainy day target started out before the rain or drizzel.
I'm not a good enough shooter to see a 0.02MOA change.
20 shots into about an MOA. Then went south.
If you look close (sorry about the poor 100yd photo) you can see the 3rd 7 shot group had shots that hit near POA and some that dropped.

I wonder what the probability is for a fast 22cal bullet hitting a single raindrop over 100 yards of light rain?
https://www.gunsandammo.com/editorial/effects-rain-bullet-trajectory/372027

I wonder if coating your bullets with Rain-X would help?

 

[Dimner]

I'm a firm believer that the likely hood of a rain drop hitting a bullet in mid flight is very slim. This of course depends on the type of rain, but I don't shoot in crazy down pours, or sideways misting etc. a passing shower will not have any impact.

Rain drops move at 20mph or around 29fps. Given the velocities our bullets move, you can basically consider the raindrops static in position as the bullet travels to the target. So your biggest concern, and I think it's still minimal is your bullet hitting a raindrop that happens to be in the way. But again, that's a negligible concen. There won't be many in the way in that one brief instant in any passing rain shower.

The much bigger issue is if you have rain collecting on the roof of your covered shooting position, pooling up and causing a continuous drizzle in front of your bench. Just keep an eye out for that.

 

[Clancy]

I bought and tried a Garmin. Never missed a shot, so easy to use. Two weeks later I had sold my LR and my Magneto, absolutely no regrets.

A guy has a lot of choices now days, like whiskey, get what you like.

Let’s just say the Garmin is the Elmer T Lee of chronographs then

 

[Rocketvapor]

We will probably have to wait to see how the LX and Xero compare once both are in common use.
Seems the 3 sensitivity levels and the option for an external trigger are carry overs from the original.

 

[Wild Bill IV]

I think your posted page is the original LR.
Note the 6AA batteries listed.
This is the FCC approval listing :FCC-LABRADAR.

FCC ID PDG-LABRADAR

fcc.report

The transmitted F is 24Ghz.
The transmitted frequency of the LR LX is 60 GHZ.
A 60Ghz processor speed would be state of the art Quantum processor.
Here is a 6GHZ processor, sort of state of the art,

https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/intel-core-i9-13900ks-cpu-review

What is the FCC approval number for the LX?
Probably this page https://fcc.report/FCC-ID/PDG-LABRADARLX
Application Details Not Loaded Yet...Exhibits Not Loaded Yet...
Initial data probably withheld for 90 days.
The signal being processed is the Doppler DIFFERENCE between Transmitted and Received signals.
Not the 24GHZ or 60GHZ signal.

My rainy day target started out before the rain or drizzel.
I'm not a good enough shooter to see a 0.02MOA change.
20 shots into about an MOA. Then went south.
If you look close (sorry about the poor 100yd photo) you can see the 3rd 7 shot group had shots that hit near POA and some that dropped.

I wonder what the probability is for a fast 22cal bullet hitting a single raindrop over 100 yards of light rain?
https://www.gunsandammo.com/editorial/effects-rain-bullet-trajectory/372027

I wonder if coating your bullets with Rain-X would help?

Hah!!! Would rain-x help!!! My god!! Man, the bullet made a mist out of that droplet and it is amazing that the mach cone keep it shape and not pull that vaporized water into the cone!!! Dah Bill!! Newton 1st law!!! The law of Inertia where a body resists change!!! But the bullet did deflect with yaw!!! Thanks for the Guns and Ammo link!!! After that article, I need to do a little more research on the compressablity of water and go back to the 2 body collision formula!! Might have to investigate the Energy formula too!!!

Being a scientist, was this experiment valid???

NO, NO, NO!! A WATER DROP FALLING OUT OF A PVC PIPE HANGING FROM A SAW HORSE WILL NOT HIT TERMINAL VELOCITY LIKE RAIN AND WILL NOT HAVE THE LARGER FORCE AND EVEN LARGER ENERGY!!!

Lets assume they shot 8 inches below the PVC pipe!!!
E = 1/2mgh + 1/2mv^2
The energy of that drop would be 1/2mgh or mgh/2!! h=2/3ft=8"
2/3xmg/2 2s cancel!!
mg/3= mx32.2/3=mx10.733
setting E=0 then mx10.733=1/2mv^2
divide both side by m. 10.733=1/2v^2
multiply both sides by 2 21.466=v^2
the square root of 21.466=v=4.63f/s
That is the speed of the falling droplet when the bullet hit it with assumed drop of 8"!!! v=4.63f/s
The terminal velocity of rain is 29f/s!!
The TERM V is 6.25 times faster!!
The mass of a 3.5mm droplet is .0000453 Slugs!!! NOT POUNDS which is force!!!
Their experimental E=0.000972
TERM V energy is E=0.0195

A difference of 20 times more energy of a true rain vs the droplet from 8 inch!!!!
I wonder if that would change the film frame exposures!!!!!! It might induce even more yaw or tip!! Could see the vaporized water cloud drift further down!!! Have to compare the TERM V with the film frame speed to see if it would be noticeable in the 12 frames!!!

 

[Dave M.]

The magneto would be the best for getting a really close true muzzle velocity!!! That would be ALMOST as accurate as the high speed video!!!

Good luck with the weight of the unit hanging off the end of the barrel. If tuners work, and they do, the magneto speed will definitely effect the barrel harmonics.

 

[Wild Bill IV]

Good luck with the weight of the unit hanging off the end of the barrel. If tuners work, and they do, the magneto speed will definitely effect the barrel harmonics.

We were just looking at MV only!! MV is very critical to down range ballistics!!! Accuracy is not the issue, Precision was the goal!!!