New 6mm longer barrel life, same accuracy 6mmCompetitionMatch

[Pbike]

Hey joesr,

How does it go in "The Outlaw Josey Whales"? "No offense meant, none taken", I was just ribbing you bud. Everybody that comes up with a new cartrdige of any new design will stand by their guns defending their cartridge for what it stands for... I am as guilty of that as anyone. My cartridge for example is extremely accurate for what I have tested, but it is not designed to be the best feeder in rapid fire, It doesn't need to be, I am a single shot rifle shooter,,I do that pretty damn fast though). I can run em fast. It's knowing when to hit the brakes that counts. My cartridge wouldn't do well with the heavier bullets like you are speaking of, but it is my theory that many high power guys look to the heavy bullets for too many answers. My answer is less recoil, less torque, a little more speed, same trajectory, great accuracy, and I mean great. The problem there is too much accuracy will still get you just an X, where enough accuracy will still get you an X... There is no credit in highpower for being more accurate. My round has some design features that are experimental and not completely proven... The turbulence point neck length for one, a thicker neck than what is typically used in BR, the Small primer BR case in .308 length shortened.

You see there are a lot of 6mm mid sized cartridges out there and they all work for the guy that is the one that designed them for his need. The idea here is to go with the cartridge that fits your need. I like the 6X47SM idea, but I can't get a straight answer on brass. It seems a guy was willing to get brass, lots of into the country, but he was met with resistance here, by some of the guys that were worried about what he would be getting from the deal. I think it is a great design. Is it better than what is out there... who knows, will it be more common than what is out there in some instances yes, will it be more accurate? Who really knows, I go to great lengths making sure mine is accurate. It might be easier and less time consuming to keep the brass in tune with factory brass being so good.

I asked a few things of your cartridge, then I saw the picture. Which one is which, I recognise the straight .243 what are the others? I would still like to know how much the water weighs in it when there is a fired primer and the case is filled with water flush to the top of the neck? You plan on using 107's, can the cartridge still be good to barrels if using lighter bullets or will the 107 be part of the reason it is good to barrels? Have you tried lighter bullets?

Paul

 

[joesr]

Paul,

The picture is of the 243, 6CM and 6XC.

I have been asked the water weight before and I'm not sure how exactly to measure that. However, a cartridge filled with tap water give a weight of the water at 55.0.

On the question of lighter bullets....the truth is I don't know, because all of information is based on experience and I don't have experience with lighter bullets. My initial response is to answer yes. However, I don't know what the powder choice and increase velocity will affect barrel life.

Send me your email and all send you the information with the explanation of what I am doing.

Joe Hendricks
hendricks4@comcast.net

 

[Northman]

It really looks like the Fireball we are talking about. A 243 necked down with a 6BR die. Giving it a 30 degree shoulder and a longer neck.

 

[MOJOMAN]

"As far as the number of rounds fired in one year I am going to take acception to the your claim that all disciplines are about equal. I’m only talking about Benchrest and XTC. My question is how much practice do benchrest shooters do? I don’t shoot benchrest so I assume that you do practice. However, XTC shooter, dedicated to the sport and working to improve themselves shoot 100 to 300 rounds per week. This is in between matches. Working on positions and rapid fire to improve our scores. Benchrest is a totally different game and doesn’t present the physical aspect that XTC shooting does. I’m not saying that benchrest shooters don’t practice nor that the sport doesn’t take work. However, XTC shooting takes training of the body and movement to perfect. That is totally different. "

Joe, I thought of quite a few things to say here, but I'm sure we will all try to take this remark in the spirit that I hope you intended it. It could be however, very insulting to alot of people. You might try to word things a little differently.

Mike

 

[memilanuk]

So... how do much you actually 'practice' i.e. rounds fired outside of sanctioned matches, on average. I'm honestly curious, now. I would imagine it varies wildly between people... some people in HP shoot thousands and thousands of rounds a year in practice, others consider themselves lucky to make it to the matches at all and treat every one as a practice for the next one. Some substitute dry-firing at home, since the human factor is the largest portion of the error equation, not something I think many people outside of position shooting venues pursue,it's damn boring, to be sure), but maybe I'm wrong on that one...

Monte

 

[Cheechako]

Monte

I shoot very little now-a-days compared to years ago but when I was active in short range benchrest I practiced a lot. In 1997 I shot in 20 tournaments. Each tournament was 20 five-shot groups for a total of 100 rounds each weekend for a total of 2000 for the year. I estimated that I fired a total of 6000 rounds that year, using up 3 barrels. That means 4000 practice rounds. And I don't practice near as much as the really good shooters. Some of them go through 10,000 rounds a year. I'm not that dedicated.

Ray

 

[MOJOMAN]

Monte,

Are you asking me the question? Or, are you asking Joe?

regards,

Mike

 

[memilanuk]

Asking any one of the Benchrest shooters... I have a fair idea how much HP shooters practice,depends); I'm curious as to how much you guys practice, and what all it entails... dry-fire, live-fire, full-distance, reduced, what? The numbers Cheechako tossed out kind of surprised me; I honestly thought that peak accuracy, defined in this case as competitive in point blank BR, was gone by 1k rds or so on average. Figured that might put a crimp on the number of rounds sent down range in other than registered matches, unless a person happened to have a small stockpile of barrel and a gunsmith with in a short drive,or do their own).

Monte

 

[Cheechako]

Monte

The answer is having a $hit load of barrels. I do my own work so get by a little cheaper than others. It's easy to go through 3 or 4 barrels a season. Tony Boyer has said that he has gone through as many as 15 in a season. He figures a barrel starts downhill at 800 rounds. Most of us get a little more barrel life than that. But you're right, 2000 is a lot for a BR barrel. They will still shoot in the two's but that ain't good enough now-a days. And a lot of the practice is done with the average barrels, saving the hummers for matches. Practice is mostly in reading conditions and trying to shoot respectable groups in the wind and mirage. Anybody can shoot little ones in good conditions but you don't learn much from that.

Don't get me wrong. 1997 for me was not the usual. Most seasons I went to probably 10 tournaments and shot maybe 3000 rounds total. But there are guys today who will be at the range on Thursday, practice all day Friday, shoot the match on Saturday and Sunday and then go back on Monday to try and figure out what they did wrong.

And I'll add this. Short range benchrest is not for poor people. That's why you don't see hardly any young people shooting. They can't afford it. I only shoot short range a couple of times a year now simply because it does take a lot more dedication than I'm willing to put into it. That plus long range is so much more fun.

Ray

 

[joesr]

If my previous post was insulting I apologize. I assumed that bench rest shooters don't need to practice. Again, I don't shoot the game so I don't know. I was obviously wrong and I am amazed at the number of rounds required to be competitive. I don't know the sport, I am new to this forum and I'm learning quite a bit.

My practice/match regiment all depends on the amount of work I have and when I can shoot. This year my company was very slow and I spent much more time in the office and on the phone than in the last few years. However, this year I went through 3 barrels and they averaged about 1800 rounds. I shot 9 local matches,88 rounds each) and Perry,322 rounds). This was an off year for me in practice time.

Normally I am at the range 3 or 4 days per week shooting 60 to 100 rounds each day. Then I try to shoot 3 matches every month,May through August). I don't dry fire as much as I should. I have also found that shooting small bore helps my high power and if I'm in funk I shoot small bore on top of the other training 1 or 2 days a week.

Again I am blown away by the fact that bench rest shooter practice so much. Obviously I don't understand the sport.

Joe Hendricks

 

[joesr]

Having processed some the recent posts I have a few thoughts regarding the 6mmCompetitionMatch and the process of shooting it and cleaning it.

First, when I designed the cartridge I was sure that it wasn't a bench rest cartridge. Simply because I thought that bench rest didn't require barrel life. However, I am learning and through that process I see that I was wrong. Probably, in both cases.


However, I also believe,and possibly I am wrong about this also so correct me if I am) that bench rest shooters shoot different bullets,smaller) than I do for XTC in the 6mm. This was apart of my reasoning that the 6CM wouldn’t be a cartridge for bench rest shooters.

All that being said, I am getting 3000 rounds out of my 6mm barrels with my loading/cleaning/barrel combinations before I see any decrease in acceptably accuracy. This is off the bench at 200 or 300 yards and I require 1/2 MOA accuracy. Again, I assume that 1/2 MOA is not good enough for bench rest. However, I don't work on loading as much as I assume is required for bench rest. I don't mess with seating depth or minor increments in powder charges. Once I get under 1/2 MOA I go practice.

Possibly, maybe, the 6mmCompetitionMatch will work for bench rest. Given that I get 3000 rounds or more before seeing my groups open up, maybe it can be tweaked to shoot acceptable bench rest groups for longer than is the current believed barrel life.

I know understand the requirements of rounds fired for bench rest shooters and they are simular to what I need. I'm not sure how the loading of the cartridges matches up in regards to bullet weight.



I also believe,again I may be wrong on this) that most bench rest shooters have a "pet cartridge" or simply like tinkering around with cartridges. However, if, as with barrels, shooting what works at the time is the norm then I am probably on to something.

I am not interested in selling barrels, dies or any other stuff exclusively. In fact this all has nothing to do with the company I own.

My reason for and drive behind what I am doing with the 6CM was to share what I have been doing for over 10 years and the results in regards to barrel life and accuracy.

That being said, possibly my loading and cleaning will help bench rest shooters extend your acceptable accuracy also. I see a 50% increase in barrel life between the 6XC and 6CM. That is 2000 rounds vs 3000 rounds. So if a bench rest barrel is done at 800 rounds, possibly with this program 1200 or more rounds are obtainable.

I give this information out to anyone that asks and I could post the 6CM document here, however it is several pages and I'd rather share it via email.



I'm just thinking.....possibly it will work for your game like it has worked for our game.


Joe Hendricks
hendricks4@comcast.net

 

[Cheechako]

joe

There may some confusion here. My comments regarding practice and number of rounds fired refers to Short Range,100, 200, 300 yards) where the 6 PPC is the dominate cartridge. Long Range, Hunter Class, and Varmint For Score benchrest shooting are completely different games using different cartridges and rifles. Many shooters participate in two of the disciplines, usually Long Range and Hunter Class or Long Range and Short Range. There may be some who shoot Short Range, Long Range and Hunter. There are no Varmint For Score matches in NBRSA. They are exclusively IBS competitions.

I shoot Long Range and Short Range. I do not practice with my long range rifles because I don't have access to a range longer than 200 yards. Practice at short range with short range rifles in a variety of conditions,wind & mirage) does wonders for my long range competition since it's the conditions, the conditions, the conditions.

Ray

 

[joesr]

Ray,

Question for you and other bench rest shooters:

Is the accuracy from the smaller bullets and cartridges so much better that it is worth the wind bucking ability of the larger bullets and worth the perceived barrel life loss of the slightly larger cartridges?

Joe Hendricks

 

[DesertLefty]

Joe,

What is the overall length of your loaded cartridges? To handle the rapid-fire stages in XTC, you must be using a repeater. How do you make them fit in the magazine? What is your gun? What is the length of your magazine box?

I'm thinking about converting my short-action Rem. 700 to 6XC, but I'm not convinced that long bullets like 107 and 115 will fit into the magazine box,2.82") and still have room to "chase the lands" as the throat wears. I've heard you can't seat them too short without running into "doughnut" problems.

What are your thoughts? Thanks,

Lefty

 

[Cheechako]

Joe

I'm not sure I understand your question completely so if I get off track here let me know. These are just my very own opinions.

At short range,100, 200, 300 yards) accuracy is the only thing. I don't know of a single benchrest shooter who chooses a cartridge or bullet based on wind bucking ability or any factor other than superior accuracy and agging ability. Thus the 6 PPC.

At 600 yards you start getting into the area of compromises. Accuracy is still the most important criteria but ballistics do play a role as conditions deterioriate. The worse the conditions the bigger role wind bucking abilities play. IMHO the 6BR is the ideal 600 yard cartridge if you are limited to, or prefer, one rifle. I personally have two rifles for 600 yard benchrest. The first is a 6 PPC, with the proper twist and bullet, which cannot be beaten for accuracy if conditions are good. If conditions are not good I switch to a bigger 6mm shooting the high BC 105 - 115 grain bullets. 600 yard benchrest is still a new game and I don't think any of us have quite made up our minds on what is best.

At 1000 yards accuracy takes a back seat to ballistics. A high BC bullet is almost a must if you want to be competitive. But it is possible to combine high BC with competitive accuracy. The general trend in 1000 yard cartridges, in NBRSA competition at least, is toward 6, 6.5, and 7 mm cartridges and away from the 30s and 338s. BC is BC no matter the caliber, contrary to what some of the die-hard big caliber shooters still believe. As in 600 yard, I almost always take two rifles to 1000 yard matches. One for good conditions and one for not so good.

As to all of this and barrel life, it's as I said before, most shooters I know will pick accuracy and ballistics first and barrel life last. Sure, we would like to have all three but we also would like to take home some of those fake-wood trophies to show the bride. It's little consolation to say, "Yes, I finished last but doesn't my barrel look nice and shiney."

Again, these are just my own humble opinions. I know there are benchrest shooters who will disagree, especially about the 1000 yard part, and I wish they would chime in. Would I defend my opinions no matter what? Hell no, because I just might be wrong! I'm certainly open to anything that will improve my chances of winning. I'm very fickle.

Ray

 

[Forum Boss]

Agree with everything Cheechako says, and yes I do predict folks may start bringing a couple guns,or at least a couple of barrels) to 600yd matches. And Jeff Gates has demonstrated how accurate a 6PPC can be at 500 yards: http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek039.html

That said, I don't think people should feel that they MUST run short, flat-base bullets to be competitive in calm conditions. I still haven't found any smaller bullet that will significantly outshoot Scenar 105s even at 100 yards in my 8-twist PacNor.,We'll soon see if the new BIB 95s can do that!) And Terry Brady, in calm conditions, set the pending 600yd world record at .860" with Berger 105s. That translates to .1433 at 100 yards!

And Scott Parker's BRX shoots in the high 1s at 100 yards with Sierra 107s.

I'm not suggesting that a 6BR running 100-grainers will agg with a 14-twist PPC at short distance. Just saying that you're not necessarily giving up much accuracy at all with the longer pills. And of course, their higher BC will help when it gets windy.

 

[joesr]

Lefty,

We load our rapid fire rounds to about 2.70. Giving enough room in the box so they function properly.

The throat in the 6CM and 243 I have been shooting is short enough that our long range rounds also fit in the box.

However, please sit down for this and take a deep breath, we are jumping the bullets .040 to .050. I know, I know, I know this is wrong by most standards, but we are looking for acceptable accuracy not supreme accuracy. The loading is giving us ½ MOA of angle for over 3000 rounds. Furthermore, if you play around with seating depths you will find that the bullets shoot really good up close and then somewhere around .01 to .018 it all goes bad. Most people stop there, but once you go beyond .035 off the lands the accuracy comes back and is very close to or as good as what you get up close. This has been consistent on every single barrel for over 10 years.

However, this doesn’t play into the round not working in the box. It is all dependent on the length of the throat. Chamber the rifle properly and you can shoot it short. You give up some case capacity, but that doesn’t matter if you are getting your velocity goal.

On the topic of your choice to rechamber. I would strongly suggest that you chamber your rifle in something with the case capacity simular to the 243 or the 6CM. What this does is allow you to shoot the slower burning powders and save the barrel.

I have a process for loading and cleaning these cartridges that give 3000 rounds with consistent accuracy over the 3000 rounds.

Email me and I’ll send it all to you.

Joe Hendricks
Hendricks4@comcast.net

 

[joesr]

Ray,

I think you got the jist of my question.

I really appreciate all of the information all of you are sharing.

I want to jump to the 600 yard shooting. In my world of XTC the 6BR is not enough rifle,velocity) to be truly competitive. Yes, good conditions it kicks butt, but even moderate winds you really are at a disadvantage. Probably the reason why is that every shot is scored separately and time between shots is 20 seconds if you have good target service and shoot fast. Time between shots may be as long as 45 seconds if you have bad target service and shoot slow. Therefore, one can reason the conditions change more between shots. This is all null and void if your game scores shots one at a time.

However, I think for 600 yards a cartridge with the case capacity of the 243 or 6CM would better suit you for less than perfect conditions. Given that you are going to be shooting the larger bullets,105 to 115). With that cartridge you can get 3000 fps or more and not give up any accuracy. The 243 might not give you quite the accuracy you require however a cartridge designed better of the same capacity will.

From what “moderator” posted it seems that supreme accuracy is achievable from the heaver bullets even at short range.

Has anyone fired, with success, a 243 sized cartridge? Possibly it needs to be tried or tried again.

Joe Hendricks

 

[Cheechako]

Moderator

Good points, all.

I know that the 105 - 115 grain high BC bullets work well at 600 yards. I know it from personal experience of having my butt kicked by them more than once. But, it's also my experience that the PPC, in a 12 twist barrel, shooting a 70 grain BT bullet is a teeny bit more accurate. Sometimes that teeny bit is the difference between winning and first loser. At the 2005 NBRSA Nationals I took the LG Score trophy by shooting 2 more Xs than the 2nd place finisher. I was lucky in getting to shoot in some good conditions but that's exactly when the PPC shines. Someday I'm going to work up the guts to try it in less than good conditions.

Joe

Good points there too.

I'll admit that I never considered the timing factor between benchrest and XC or F Class. In benchrest I'm a runner not a picker and I can see where it would make a big difference if I had to wait 30 seconds between shots

The bigger cartridge that I use when conditions get squirrely is a 50 grain case with 105 - 115 grain bullets. I believe I posted a photo of it somewhere on the forum. I shoot any of those bullets at an even 3000 fps.

In looking at the equipment lists from the 2005 National I see where one shooter used a 243 Ackley. All other 6mm were BRs or BR Improved. A couple of 6.5/284s, including the guy who won more trophies than any of us. I was pulling his target so I can tell you it was all luck. Seriously, the way he was shooting that weekend nobody else even came close to him.

I'm wondering how much of this will be moot when Lapua finally brings out that new case? I have a feeling a lot of guys will switch to it just to get good brass without having to do a lot of case forming.

Ray

 

[Northman]

What brass? I have only heard of the Tactical 20 brass laupa is making for dakota firarms.

Is there another? Interesting1