New 6mm 110 gr SMK upcoming

[cmillard]

has anyone given these a try yet? if so, how far out did you shoot them and were they stable? is a 7 twist really necessary or will a 7.5 or 8 work?

 

[Barrel Nut]

Just wanted to make others aware that, just because a bullet doesn't "keyhole" at 100yards, that doesn't mean it's optimal. That tiny wobble around the CG that you can't see on paper at 100yds can make a significant difference at 1000yds. There is good reason why Sierra recommends a twist rate of 7 "OR FASTER". They are the ones with the expensive test equipment and VERY experienced ballistic experts.
Berger, at least so far, has chosen to keep costs down and let the customer choose whether or not to tip/point. Their tech said they may be forced by the competition to offer a similar product. Customers will decide.

You can't see these tiny differences at 100 yards if you measure with a coin or a carpenters tape, but you can if you use a computerized measuring aid like On Target software which can mark your bullet holes to the nearest .001" and calculate the important data associated with your groups.

Like a Hollywood star craving the latest drug, we who shoot matches at 600 or 1000 yards are always chasing the latest and greatest high B.C. bullets. Of course I bought a hundred of the new Hornady 108gr ELD's and the Sierra 110gr Match Kings to test in my 6mm BR with a 28" Shilen Match Select Barrel in 1:8 twist. I wanted to compare them with my winning recipe using Berger 105gr Hybrids moly coated and pointed by me shot with IMR 4895 or Varget, depending on availability.

I loaded 30 rounds of each type and shot them yesterday as six 5-shot groups at 100 yards. Here are the average results including a comparison with 30 rounds of previously tested Berger 105's (I hope I can format this correctly):

Bullet Type Average MOA Mean Radius MV

Berger Hybrid 105gr 0.275 0.096 2824

Hornady ELD 108gr 0.412 0.156 2806

Sierra Match King 110gr 0.792 0.288 2811

There is a bit of apples-to-oranges here. The Berger loads are quite refined while the Hornady and Sierra loads are the results of early testing. That means the bullets or cases weren't weight sorted, for example. By the way, I moly coated the bullets together in one batch figuring the ELDs would be easy to separate because of their red plastic tip. Of course, the tips came out silver and even though a close look reveals which is which, I figured as long as I was going to handle each bullet individually, I might as well weigh them. I'm happy to report that both the Hornady and Sierra bullets weigh more consistently than do my Bergers. Not by much, but they definitely have fewer which are way out of bounds weight-wise.

Unfortunately the performance of the Sierras, and most likely the Hornady 108's are unlikely to ever match the Bergers. No surprise with the Sierra 110's. Sierra warns they should be launched out of a 1:7 twist or faster. My 1:8 just isn't fast enough. The holes were all round, but that doesn't tell the whole tale. I have quite a bit of experience shooting .223 heavy bullets in barrels with insufficient twist and in addition to the predicted loss of B.C., there is a definite loss of accuracy and/or consistency.

I'm embarrassed to say I wasted a lot of time and effort trying to shoot .223 Berger 90gr VLD's out of a short, 1:7 twist barrel. Eventually I bought a 30" 1:6.5 barrel and found success. I saw the same thing trying to shoot the 6mm BR SMK 110's with the wrong barrel, but I wised up more quickly this time.

Anyone with a 6mm BR knows that sub 1/2 MOA 5 shot groups are nearly automatic no matter what. A recipe producing no groups at sub 1/2 MOA and an average worse than 3/4 MOA is not worth wasting time on; silk purses and sow's ears etc.

The Hornady 108's, on the other hand, might be worth giving another chance, at least until I use up all my original purchase. The SMK 110's will most likely just sit on my shelf until I bump into someone with a 1:7 twist barrel and can trade the left-overs for a cold beer.

For those who crave speed, it should be noted that I've fired the Berger Hybrid 105's at speeds up to 3028fps, but accuracy suffers significantly. Speeds in the low 2800's seem to produce the best accuracy in this particular barrel with bullets even as light at 87gr. I find that a little odd, but my carefully measured performance data, which I study in a M.S. Excel spread sheet, clearly show those results.

So there's my 2 cents on the SMK 110's. Take it for what it's worth, but don't forget: This is the Internet, YMMV, and all that.

 

[Danny1788]

You can't see these tiny differences at 100 yards if you measure with a coin or a carpenters tape, but you can if you use a computerized measuring aid like On Target software which can mark your bullet holes to the nearest .001" and calculate the important data associated with your groups.

Like a Hollywood star craving the latest drug, we who shoot matches at 600 or 1000 yards are always chasing the latest and greatest high B.C. bullets. Of course I bought a hundred of the new Hornady 108gr ELD's and the Sierra 110gr Match Kings to test in my 6mm BR with a 28" Shilen Match Select Barrel in 1:8 twist. I wanted to compare them with my winning recipe using Berger 105gr Hybrids moly coated and pointed by me shot with IMR 4895 or Varget, depending on availability.

I loaded 30 rounds of each type and shot them yesterday as six 5-shot groups at 100 yards. Here are the average results including a comparison with 30 rounds of previously tested Berger 105's (I hope I can format this correctly):

Bullet Type Average MOA Mean Radius MV

Berger Hybrid 105gr 0.275 0.096 2824

Hornady ELD 108gr 0.412 0.156 2806

Sierra Match King 110gr 0.792 0.288 2811

There is a bit of apples-to-oranges here. The Berger loads are quite refined while the Hornady and Sierra loads are the results of early testing. That means the bullets or cases weren't weight sorted, for example. By the way, I moly coated the bullets together in one batch figuring the ELDs would be easy to separate because of their red plastic tip. Of course, the tips came out silver and even though a close look reveals which is which, I figured as long as I was going to handle each bullet individually, I might as well weigh them. I'm happy to report that both the Hornady and Sierra bullets weigh more consistently than do my Bergers. Not by much, but they definitely have fewer which are way out of bounds weight-wise.

Unfortunately the performance of the Sierras, and most likely the Hornady 108's are unlikely to ever match the Bergers. No surprise with the Sierra 110's. Sierra warns they should be launched out of a 1:7 twist or faster. My 1:8 just isn't fast enough. The holes were all round, but that doesn't tell the whole tale. I have quite a bit of experience shooting .223 heavy bullets in barrels with insufficient twist and in addition to the predicted loss of B.C., there is a definite loss of accuracy and/or consistency.

I'm embarrassed to say I wasted a lot of time and effort trying to shoot .223 Berger 90gr VLD's out of a short, 1:7 twist barrel. Eventually I bought a 30" 1:6.5 barrel and found success. I saw the same thing trying to shoot the 6mm BR SMK 110's with the wrong barrel, but I wised up more quickly this time.

Anyone with a 6mm BR knows that sub 1/2 MOA 5 shot groups are nearly automatic no matter what. A recipe producing no groups at sub 1/2 MOA and an average worse than 3/4 MOA is not worth wasting time on; silk purses and sow's ears etc.

The Hornady 108's, on the other hand, might be worth giving another chance, at least until I use up all my original purchase. The SMK 110's will most likely just sit on my shelf until I bump into someone with a 1:7 twist barrel and can trade the left-overs for a cold beer.

For those who crave speed, it should be noted that I've fired the Berger Hybrid 105's at speeds up to 3028fps, but accuracy suffers significantly. Speeds in the low 2800's seem to produce the best accuracy in this particular barrel with bullets even as light at 87gr. I find that a little odd, but my carefully measured performance data, which I study in a M.S. Excel spread sheet, clearly show those results.

So there's my 2 cents on the SMK 110's. Take it for what it's worth, but don't forget: This is the Internet, YMMV, and all that.

Do you think the 110smk would work better in a 1-8" twist if the muzzle velocity was over 3000fps? I have a 1-8" 6-06 that I might try these in.

 

[Barrel Nut]

Do you think the 110smk would work better in a 1-8" twist if the muzzle velocity was over 3000fps? I have a 1-8" 6-06 that I might try these in.

Yes, but not better enough for my purposes. Take a look at Bergers twist rate calculator on their web site. You can plug in various B.C. numbers, twist rates, and MV's. You will quickly see that a 1/2 inch increase in twist rate has a large effect, while an increase of a couple of hundred fps produces a much smaller change in the stability factor. Remember, I'm trying to win 600 yd F-class matches so I've gotta' make complicated decisions starting with MV, average precision, and B.C. If you're hunting deer at longer ranges, your decision could be completely different from mine.

I study my carefully collected data and try to make a decision after factoring in my ability (or inability) to read the wind. Most any recipe will do if you can perfectly read the wind. But since I can't do that, I try to guess how bad I am at reading wind and then try to decide if a higher BC bullet which is less accurate will beat a lower BC but more accurate bullet. Of course, MV has something to do with it as well.

It's obvious that if you shoot matches where the wind is very light and/or predictable your recipe choice will be different from someone shooting at a range with tricky winds, assuming your wind reading skills are equal......... which they won't be. Bottom line: The best recipe ain't easy to determine and it may very well change depending on the weather or time of year. The guys who figure this out the best are called "Champion". The rest of us just hope someone will say something like, "Not bad for a half blind old man"

 

[dbramley]

Do you think the 110smk would work better in a 1-8" twist if the muzzle velocity was over 3000fps? I have a 1-8" 6-06 that I might try these in.

Just get a 300WSM and be done with it.

 

[ASbobcat]

You can't see these tiny differences at 100 yards if you measure with a coin or a carpenters tape, but you can if you use a computerized measuring aid like On Target software which can mark your bullet holes to the nearest .001" and calculate the important data associated with your groups.

Like a Hollywood star craving the latest drug, we who shoot matches at 600 or 1000 yards are always chasing the latest and greatest high B.C. bullets. Of course I bought a hundred of the new Hornady 108gr ELD's and the Sierra 110gr Match Kings to test in my 6mm BR with a 28" Shilen Match Select Barrel in 1:8 twist. I wanted to compare them with my winning recipe using Berger 105gr Hybrids moly coated and pointed by me shot with IMR 4895 or Varget, depending on availability.

I loaded 30 rounds of each type and shot them yesterday as six 5-shot groups at 100 yards. Here are the average results including a comparison with 30 rounds of previously tested Berger 105's (I hope I can format this correctly):

Bullet Type Average MOA Mean Radius MV

Berger Hybrid 105gr 0.275 0.096 2824

Hornady ELD 108gr 0.412 0.156 2806

Sierra Match King 110gr 0.792 0.288 2811

There is a bit of apples-to-oranges here. The Berger loads are quite refined while the Hornady and Sierra loads are the results of early testing. That means the bullets or cases weren't weight sorted, for example. By the way, I moly coated the bullets together in one batch figuring the ELDs would be easy to separate because of their red plastic tip. Of course, the tips came out silver and even though a close look reveals which is which, I figured as long as I was going to handle each bullet individually, I might as well weigh them. I'm happy to report that both the Hornady and Sierra bullets weigh more consistently than do my Bergers. Not by much, but they definitely have fewer which are way out of bounds weight-wise.

Unfortunately the performance of the Sierras, and most likely the Hornady 108's are unlikely to ever match the Bergers. No surprise with the Sierra 110's. Sierra warns they should be launched out of a 1:7 twist or faster. My 1:8 just isn't fast enough. The holes were all round, but that doesn't tell the whole tale. I have quite a bit of experience shooting .223 heavy bullets in barrels with insufficient twist and in addition to the predicted loss of B.C., there is a definite loss of accuracy and/or consistency.

I'm embarrassed to say I wasted a lot of time and effort trying to shoot .223 Berger 90gr VLD's out of a short, 1:7 twist barrel. Eventually I bought a 30" 1:6.5 barrel and found success. I saw the same thing trying to shoot the 6mm BR SMK 110's with the wrong barrel, but I wised up more quickly this time.

Anyone with a 6mm BR knows that sub 1/2 MOA 5 shot groups are nearly automatic no matter what. A recipe producing no groups at sub 1/2 MOA and an average worse than 3/4 MOA is not worth wasting time on; silk purses and sow's ears etc.

The Hornady 108's, on the other hand, might be worth giving another chance, at least until I use up all my original purchase. The SMK 110's will most likely just sit on my shelf until I bump into someone with a 1:7 twist barrel and can trade the left-overs for a cold beer.

For those who crave speed, it should be noted that I've fired the Berger Hybrid 105's at speeds up to 3028fps, but accuracy suffers significantly. Speeds in the low 2800's seem to produce the best accuracy in this particular barrel with bullets even as light at 87gr. I find that a little odd, but my carefully measured performance data, which I study in a M.S. Excel spread sheet, clearly show those results.

So there's my 2 cents on the SMK 110's. Take it for what it's worth, but don't forget: This is the Internet, YMMV, and all that.

Thanks for taking the time, and money, to do the field testing. Theories are great, but there is no substitute for a trip to the range. Just confirmed what I suspected.

 

[djporter]

I just shot 33 of them this morning at 300 yards, seemed to be stable. Krieger 1-8 in a Dasher with 31.5 gr's of Varget. Not sorted for ogive length or weight. Elevation was 965 ft. They did OK, I was fire forming some Norma Dasher brass. I'm going to keep testing them.

 

[swd]

Just get a 300WSM and be done with it.

I don't think 6mm 110 SMK's will shoot very well in that...

 

[swd]

I'm getting ready to load up 110's tonight. Any consensus on whether they like to be in or out and how much?

 

[Gabe22BR]

I started where I was shooting the hybrids. Worked backwards to in. Few thou off touch..

 

[swd]

Thanks I'll start around there for my first go at them.

 

[Mulligan]

I had a chance to move out there with a job offer I got. My Dad just turned 95, and would never be able to leave right now. Bad timing, but who knows one day!! I know there are a lot of Libs out there, Hillary carried Oregon. Not sure I`d be welcome.

She only carried Portland. The rest of the state was voting for the Constitution.
CW

 

[500Stroker]

You can't see these tiny differences at 100 yards if you measure with a coin or a carpenters tape, but you can if you use a computerized measuring aid like On Target software which can mark your bullet holes to the nearest .001" and calculate the important data associated with your groups.

Like a Hollywood star craving the latest drug, we who shoot matches at 600 or 1000 yards are always chasing the latest and greatest high B.C. bullets. Of course I bought a hundred of the new Hornady 108gr ELD's and the Sierra 110gr Match Kings to test in my 6mm BR with a 28" Shilen Match Select Barrel in 1:8 twist. I wanted to compare them with my winning recipe using Berger 105gr Hybrids moly coated and pointed by me shot with IMR 4895 or Varget, depending on availability.

I loaded 30 rounds of each type and shot them yesterday as six 5-shot groups at 100 yards. Here are the average results including a comparison with 30 rounds of previously tested Berger 105's (I hope I can format this correctly):

Bullet Type Average MOA Mean Radius MV

Berger Hybrid 105gr 0.275 0.096 2824

Hornady ELD 108gr 0.412 0.156 2806

Sierra Match King 110gr 0.792 0.288 2811

There is a bit of apples-to-oranges here. The Berger loads are quite refined while the Hornady and Sierra loads are the results of early testing. That means the bullets or cases weren't weight sorted, for example. By the way, I moly coated the bullets together in one batch figuring the ELDs would be easy to separate because of their red plastic tip. Of course, the tips came out silver and even though a close look reveals which is which, I figured as long as I was going to handle each bullet individually, I might as well weigh them. I'm happy to report that both the Hornady and Sierra bullets weigh more consistently than do my Bergers. Not by much, but they definitely have fewer which are way out of bounds weight-wise.

Unfortunately the performance of the Sierras, and most likely the Hornady 108's are unlikely to ever match the Bergers. No surprise with the Sierra 110's. Sierra warns they should be launched out of a 1:7 twist or faster. My 1:8 just isn't fast enough. The holes were all round, but that doesn't tell the whole tale. I have quite a bit of experience shooting .223 heavy bullets in barrels with insufficient twist and in addition to the predicted loss of B.C., there is a definite loss of accuracy and/or consistency.

I'm embarrassed to say I wasted a lot of time and effort trying to shoot .223 Berger 90gr VLD's out of a short, 1:7 twist barrel. Eventually I bought a 30" 1:6.5 barrel and found success. I saw the same thing trying to shoot the 6mm BR SMK 110's with the wrong barrel, but I wised up more quickly this time.

Anyone with a 6mm BR knows that sub 1/2 MOA 5 shot groups are nearly automatic no matter what. A recipe producing no groups at sub 1/2 MOA and an average worse than 3/4 MOA is not worth wasting time on; silk purses and sow's ears etc.

The Hornady 108's, on the other hand, might be worth giving another chance, at least until I use up all my original purchase. The SMK 110's will most likely just sit on my shelf until I bump into someone with a 1:7 twist barrel and can trade the left-overs for a cold beer.

For those who crave speed, it should be noted that I've fired the Berger Hybrid 105's at speeds up to 3028fps, but accuracy suffers significantly. Speeds in the low 2800's seem to produce the best accuracy in this particular barrel with bullets even as light at 87gr. I find that a little odd, but my carefully measured performance data, which I study in a M.S. Excel spread sheet, clearly show those results.

So there's my 2 cents on the SMK 110's. Take it for what it's worth, but don't forget: This is the Internet, YMMV, and all that.

Nut, if I read correctly all your testing was done at 100 yards. In the past I have had similar results testing bullets at 100 yards, but when it tested the same load/bullets at 600 yards I got much different results. Some bullets that shot like crap at 100 performed well at 600. It may be just my gun, but I would try some at 600 before you get rid of them. For what it is worth .
Good luck.

 

[spclark]

Haven't read this entire thread but it seems Sierra says "1:7 or faster" for their .617 BC.

I may try some in my 6XC's 1:7.7 or the 1:7.5, see what happens.

 

[swd]

I shot them for a 3x1000 F shoot last weekend. 1-7.5" at 3080. They did very well on a switchy, up and down day and made me look better than I am. I'll definately keep using them.

 

[spclark]

I shot them for a 3x1000 F shoot last weekend. 1-7.5" at 3080.

In a Dasher maybe? What was the temp. that day?

I can get Berger 105's up to 3,100 but prefer something a little closer to 3,025 for 1,000 yards. (Got 3,200 with RL17 but brass - the large rifle kind - was toast!)

With the longer bearing surface I'm thinking 3,000 would maybe be max. out if a 6XC & that at 60° - 85°F.

 

[Terry]

I shot the 110's last week in a 1:8 twist. No problem at 600.
First try 3". Needs a little tuning.

 

[Phil]

In a Dasher maybe? What was the temp. that day?

I can get Berger 105's up to 3,100 but prefer something a little closer to 3,025 for 1,000 yards. (Got 3,200 with RL17 but brass - the large rifle kind - was toast!)

With the longer bearing surface I'm thinking 3,000 would maybe be max. out if a 6XC & that at 60° - 85°F.

I`m willing to bet that SWD was shooting a 6-6.5x47 Wildcat at those speeds.......

Just my guess though.

 

[swd]

I`m willing to bet that SWD was shooting a 6-6.5x47 Wildcat at those speeds.......

Just my guess though.

Yep the 6x47L IMP with RL16. That was one of my lower nodes at 3080. I didn't chrono the high node, but I'm guessing 3300ish and it's compressed at the high node. Don't need to kill the barrel any faster... High 40's most of the day. The 110's actually have less bearing surface than the 107SMK. Looking forward to working more with the 110.

 

[500Stroker]

I shot the 110's last week in a 1:8 twist. No problem at 600.
First try 3". Needs a little tuning.

OK,"first try 3" " ? Please elaborate.