They will have a long bearing surface and won't be able to reach near the speed of a 90 berger without pressure. However the will turn my 7 twist trainer rifle into a nice hog and deer killer.
New 22cal 88GR Hornady ELD-M
- Thread starter Evlshnngns
- Start date
223AI benchrest rifle with 27" barrel. Rifle isn't ready yet but I have some 88's coming next week. Should be up and running by end of July
7 twist, which I'm hoping will suit, should work at 7000ft elevation where I live??
I keep reading that Berger 90vld's blow up sometimes and 90 SMK aren't the most accurate bullet??
Man, it'd sure be nice to get sub 1/2 moa, 2850 fps, and no H88 remorse.
7 twist, which I'm hoping will suit, should work at 7000ft elevation where I live??
I keep reading that Berger 90vld's blow up sometimes and 90 SMK aren't the most accurate bullet??
Man, it'd sure be nice to get sub 1/2 moa, 2850 fps, and no H88 remorse.
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
People have had well-documented issues with jacket failures shooting the 90 VLDs in .223 Rem F-TR rifles at velocities in the 2820-2850 fps range. It appears as though the most critical factor is the barrel twist rate. Twists of 6.8 (or less) have been more commonly associated with jacket failures. I'd imagine if you can push the 90 VLDs at over 3000 fps with a different cartridge, you could get away with a 7.2-twist (or higher) to help minimize the risk of jacket failure. At .223 Rem velocities, a 7.0-twist seems to be the best combination for getting the most out of the intrinsic BC of the bullet without a significant frequency of jacket failures. At 2850 fps, you're giving up a couple percent of the maximum intrinsic BC with a 7.0-twist barrel, but that's negligible compared to a jacket failure in the middle of a string during a match.
Years ago I was going to have built a 22-250 for 90's. People who had done that warned me not too because of jacket failure so I didn't try.
I had a 20x47L barrel done, 55's started blowing up 300 rounds in.
140 Berger hybrids blew up at 3275 fps.
I'm kinda done with pushing Berger bullets hard as much as I like them.
linebaugh
Silver $$ Contributor
I run a 22250AI with 90gr vlds out of a 7 twist at 3100 +/- 20fps in my PRS rifle. This is my second bbl and second year on this combo. Barrels get hot, fouled and most matches are in the 100round count range with two day matches and larger events doubling that number. I can doccument that in 2600 rounds I have had zero bullets blow up in flight. I am planning to go to 22 creed or a 22 creed improved next year and pushing them at 3150ish or the sierra 95's at 3100ish depending on accuracy. I am NOT going to shoot anything faster than 7 twist.
If you do the math on RPMs you can compare the bullet speed/twist/RPM and get an idea on what's going on when compared to the way I am shooting them.
As a side note. I have another 22250 AI 8 twist running 3150-70ish with the 90 bergers and they are stable with no reduction in BC noted. If you look around I think you will find most of the faster twist and bullet failure propaganda has been pushed and repeated by people NOT actually shooting them. I have read many times that the 90s will stabilize at 3100+ from an 8 twist from people wbo are actually shooting them.
I personally think some of the bullet failure stories probably originated due to carbon rings causing pressure and bullet stress. For some reason I do "think" I see more carbon build up in this specific combo. Nothing set in stone, just an observation.
Hope that helps somebody.
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
I do know something about shooting the 90s. I have been shooting them in F-TR competition for the last 5 years. Jacket failures can become an issue when you try to push them at or over about 300,00 rpm. If you read what I wrote, you will see we are likely on the same page with regard to spin rates and where the 90s potentially start to have problems. I have discussed this issue at length with several others who have also experienced jacket failures during matches and it's unlikely to be solely due to carbon ring issues, although that could certainly have an additive effect. More specifically, the barrels documented to have this problem have almost exclusively 6.8 to 6.7-twist or faster. There also seems to be a Lot-specific contribution to the problem, as specific Lots of the 90s seem to have a propensity for jacket failures. I expect another contribution to the issue may be the longer strings of fire (25+) we shoot in F-TR.
The jacket failures with these bullets are real, not imaginary, and not propaganda. You may well get away with shooting the 90s at 3000 fps or faster in an 8-twist barrel. That certainly should lessen the probability of jacket failures. However, you're also giving up as much as 10% of the intrinsic BC of the bullet per Berger's twist rate calculator. They may well remain stable to the target under those conditions, and it may not dramatically affect performance depending on the type of shooting for which you're using them. But when shooting a .223 with 90s in F-TR against people using high BC 200 gr .308 loads, you don't have the luxury of giving up that much BC and still hope to remain competitive. If you're running them at 3100 fps out of a 7-twist barrel and haven't had issues yet, I'd say either you're extremely lucky, or you've got very good Lot(s) of bullets. Either way, jacket failure doesn't become a confidence issue until you experience it, so I'd keep doing exactly what you're doing until/unless you ever have one let go.
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linebaugh
Silver $$ Contributor
(720 × muzzle velocity) / twist = RPM
8 twist at 3170 = 285,300... I see no degredation of BC or stabilization to 770 yrds at 1500 sea level
7 twist at 3100 = 318,850... I shoot this weekly and have never had bullets pop.
6.5 twist at 2850 = 315,692... gets you close to the RPM I am running in my 7 twist... just an example.
6.8 twist at 2850 = 301,765... stated above to blow bullets up in flight
With the above noted it appears Berger is producing a bullet that can not be prolerly stabilized without blowing up in flight. If it takes 300,000 rpm to stabilze them and they come apart in flight at 300,000 rpm that is a bit of a knundrum.
8 twist at 3170 = 285,300... I see no degredation of BC or stabilization to 770 yrds at 1500 sea level
7 twist at 3100 = 318,850... I shoot this weekly and have never had bullets pop.
6.5 twist at 2850 = 315,692... gets you close to the RPM I am running in my 7 twist... just an example.
6.8 twist at 2850 = 301,765... stated above to blow bullets up in flight
With the above noted it appears Berger is producing a bullet that can not be prolerly stabilized without blowing up in flight. If it takes 300,000 rpm to stabilze them and they come apart in flight at 300,000 rpm that is a bit of a knundrum.
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
You don't seem to grasp the simple concept that no one is claiming every single bullet has a jacket failure. However, even a single jacket failure in a match means you just lost. The failure rate can vary widely, ranging from a single isolated event, to where people start losing 3-4 out of every 5 bullets. I've studied the jacket failure issues for some time, speaking with several other shooters that have had the problem, representatives from Berger, and shooting several 90 VLDs in the process. Believe whatever you wish, but the fact that these bullets are at risk for jacket due to high twist rates is not debatable. As I stated, perhaps you got a good Lot, or you've simply been lucky. Not losing a bullet to jacket failure is in no way evidence that it can't or doesn't happen. Perhaps your opinion might change when you lose one in the middle of an important match.
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Thought this thread was gonna be about the 88gr ELD-M???
Bingo to what Greg says, I have had my share of bullets coming apart with the 90VLD in 6.7 twist. good information right here !!
Used 5R and the came apart.
Jdne5b
Gold $$ Contributor
Do you have a BTO (base to ogive) and overall length measurement of the 88gr?
OAL - 1.242"
BTO - .615"
BT - .200
BTO - .615"
BT - .200
I’m gonna get a few and try them since my throat is worn and should be long enough for them. I’ve never had a jacket failure with a 90 in a 6.5 twist 5r at 2850 but I’m due and don’t want it costing me a match. Hope the 88’s shoot well enough.
I would think its barrel length, what is your current length now?
After a short load development I got to shoot these in my 22" suppressed 223 out to 989yds.... My accuracy node was at .025 jump and 2839fps with no pressure and the b.c. is spot on to that distance and closer. I didn't shoot any groups at distance but I didn't miss any targets 800yds or closer and the ones I did miss were wind. This bullet is pretty great in my opinion. My elevation at 989yds was 8.4 mils and my friends 6.5x47 with 140gr hybrids was 8.1 mils for comparison.
I have some loaded for my 223, time will tell.
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