New 22cal 88GR Hornady ELD-M

[McFred]

Everyone's least favorite: .223 WSSM.

 

[deadduck357]

Everyone's least favorite: .223 WSSM.

Thanks. Was wondering what was giving that much velocity with these bullets.

 

[284winner]

I threw this load together to test and came up with this:
.224 88 ELD-M
3298fps using Reloder 26
26" 1:8 twist (1.40 stability factor per Berger's calculator)
Drop seems to jive with Factory G7 BC out to 950 yards.
200 yards prone with a bipod/rear bag.
5 shots upper left, 6 in the middle.

I come up with a 1.16 stability factor for the 88 ELD. 1.240 length. .274 G7 BC. 3350 fps. 1000' elevation. Possibly your elevation is much much greater than mine. That would be the only factor that could make you stability factor in the 1.4s.

 

[Evan]

I come up with a 1.16 stability factor for the 88 ELD. 1.240 length. .274 G7 BC. 3350 fps. 1000' elevation. Possibly your elevation is much much greater than mine. That would be the only factor that could make you stability factor in the 1.4s.

Plastic tips throw off the calculator. It's been suggested that it's closer to reality if you subtract the tip from the length. Either way, they are easier to stabilize than the calculator suggests.

 

[284winner]

Plastic tips throw off the calculator. It's been suggested that it's closer to reality if you subtract the tip from the length. Either way, they are easier to stabilize than the calculator suggests.

Great to know. Seems so.

 

[McFred]

I come up with a 1.16 stability factor ... Possibly your elevation is much much greater than mine

My house is 6400'. The ranges I shoot are 5200', 6600', 6650' and 7280'. But when camping/plinking I'll go up to 10,500' to escape the summer heat. I am aware that sea level will likely cause me issues.

 

[284winner]

My house is 6400'. The ranges I shoot are 5200', 6600', 6650' and 7280'. But when camping/plinking I'll go up to 10,500' to escape the summer heat. I am aware that sea level will likely cause me issues.

Hell you could almost get away with a 9 twist. Elevation makes the biggest difference. Velocity makes the smallest difference

 

[B23]

Elevation makes the biggest difference. Velocity makes the smallest difference

Though many will argue, the above is absolutely correct. Velocity helps a little, but nothing like elevation.

 

[284winner]

Though many will argue, the above is absolutely correct. Velocity helps a little, but nothing like elevation.

It's pretty easy to run the numbers. I hunt antelope in Wyoming at around 7700'. My residence is around 675'. That 7000' makes a 300 fps/300 ft lbs and 3 MOA difference at 1000 yards (284 win/162 grain). Pretty significant

 

[mao0720]

I have shot quite a few of the 88gr eld out my 223 over the past year. They shoot fantastically. My node has been around 2825 fps out of a 26” 1-7” twist barrel. I’m using H4895 and Lapua brass. Chamber is the 223 issf chamber, however a shorter freebore could be used while still keeping the boat tail/ bearing surface junction above the neck/should junction of the case. I think something in the .150 range would be as short of a freebore as you could go. The issf is .169 freebore and puts the bullet a bit long for mag feeding when the bullets are jammed. Luckily I was able to get them to jump well. I feed mine out of mdt brand AICS 223 mags and they feed very well. Between the price and the performance these are top notch bullets for anyone wanting to shoot heavies in a 223.

 

[MoaFlat]

I run a 22250AI with 90gr vlds out of a 7 twist at 3100 +/- 20fps in my PRS rifle. This is my second bbl and second year on this combo. Barrels get hot, fouled and most matches are in the 100round count range with two day matches and larger events doubling that number. I can doccument that in 2600 rounds I have had zero bullets blow up in flight. I am planning to go to 22 creed or a 22 creed improved next year and pushing them at 3150ish or the sierra 95's at 3100ish depending on accuracy. I am NOT going to shoot anything faster than 7 twist.

If you do the math on RPMs you can compare the bullet speed/twist/RPM and get an idea on what's going on when compared to the way I am shooting them.

As a side note. I have another 22250 AI 8 twist running 3150-70ish with the 90 bergers and they are stable with no reduction in BC noted. If you look around I think you will find most of the faster twist and bullet failure propaganda has been pushed and repeated by people NOT actually shooting them. I have read many times that the 90s will stabilize at 3100+ from an 8 twist from people wbo are actually shooting them.
I personally think some of the bullet failure stories probably originated due to carbon rings causing pressure and bullet stress. For some reason I do "think" I see more carbon build up in this specific combo. Nothing set in stone, just an observation.

Hope that helps somebody.

Very helpful insight for this new owner of a 22-250 7twist 28” Hardy match barrel hearing mostly naysayers and much more doom and gloom with 7t. Looking to use 80 & 88gr ELDMs and thinking RL26 might do. Any starting Load insights around this would be most appreciated.

 

[linebaugh]

Very helpful insight for this new owner of a 22-250 7twist 28” Hardy match barrel hearing mostly naysayers and much more doom and gloom with 7t. Looking to use 80 & 88gr ELDMs and thinking RL26 might do. Any starting Load insights around this would be most appreciated.

Moaflat.
I did have bullets blow up last year in my 22250 Ackley. Different barrel maker and the 90 vlds blew up a fair amount out of a 7 twist. The 88s held up better but not good enough. The sierras held together always and are doing so up to date. Currently running 95s at 3000-3050 in a 30" tube.

 

[Evan]

Very helpful insight for this new owner of a 22-250 7twist 28” Hardy match barrel hearing mostly naysayers and much more doom and gloom with 7t. Looking to use 80 & 88gr ELDMs and thinking RL26 might do. Any starting Load insights around this would be most appreciated.

See my thread here: http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/my-new-22br.3981971/page-2#post-37548898

Not super great. Just be prepared with another plan if it doesn't work and your barrel is prone to blowing them up, which is likely.

 

[Ned Ludd]

The bottom line is that the 90 VLDs and the 88 ELDMs appear to be prone to some rate of jacket failure when spun at RPMs greater than ~300K, regardless of the twist rate and velocity combination used to reach those spin rates. There can obviously also be rifle-to-rifle differences such that some people experience a significant number of failures, and some may experience few, or even none, in what appear to be fairly comparable setups. Nonetheless, in many cases even a single jacket failure can be a deal breaker under the right circumstances (i.e. in the middle of an important match).

The easiest solution is to utilize a barrel twist rate that won't spin these bullets at RPMs approaching 300K for a given velocity/cartridge. Alternatively, it appears as though bullets in the 80 gr weight class are less susceptible to jacket failure, possibly due to them generally having shorter bearing surfaces. The BCs of bullets in the 80 gr weight class are lower than the 88s/90s, but you can push them faster with a slightly slower twist rate and the difference in performance may not be as great as it might seem solely from directly comparing two BCs.

 

[Evan]

I'm not going to get another 7 twist 22. I think any future barrels will be 8 twist shooting the 75-80s. My future guns in any caliber will also be built to fall under that 300k rpm limit. The 90s just aren't a very good tradeoff in bigger than 223 cartridges. They are so specialized around that FTR niche and I don't think that recoil is significantly reduced from a 6BR variant shooting 105s when both are in ~16lb rifles. There seem to be no advantages.

 

[steve123]

I shot some 90gr TGK in my 6mmBR, there was hardly any difference in felt recoil compared to my 105 hybrid load.

But out of my 223AI the 88's do seem to have milder recoil, even without a muzzle brake, and the 223AI weighing in a couple pounds more. I thinks it's the longer barrel - less pressure at muzzle, and 5 grains less powder being burned??

 

[linebaugh]

I'm not going to get another 7 twist 22. I think any future barrels will be 8 twist shooting the 75-80s. My future guns in any caliber will also be built to fall under that 300k rpm limit. The 90s just aren't a very good tradeoff in bigger than 223 cartridges. They are so specialized around that FTR niche and I don't think that recoil is significantly reduced from a 6BR variant shooting 105s when both are in ~16lb rifles. There seem to be no advantages.

Agree on anything but 95s. 7.5 or 7.7 or anything above 7 would be good. If you can push 3k plus 8 works for me.

 

[Evan]

Agree on anything but 95s. 7.5 or 7.7 or anything above 7 would be good. If you can push 3k plus 8 works for me.

I'm excited to try the 95s. They may completely redeem 7twist 22BR for me. The last hold out if the 95s aren't good is the 90SMK.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Evan - you might really find the 95s to your liking. In my hands, they shoot very well, but the .223 Rem cartridge just doesn't have quite enough horsepower to move them like it can 90 gr (or lower) bullets. I doubt you'll have that problem .

 

[MoaFlat]

Very helpful insight for this new owner of a 22-250 7twist 28” Hardy match barrel hearing mostly naysayers and much more doom and gloom with 7t. Looking to use 80 & 88gr ELDMs and thinking RL26 might do. Any starting Load insights around this would be most appreciated.

I hearing many naysayers of doom and gloom with 7 twist shooting anything or they just blow up everything....I’ll never have 7 twist ever again. What is the failure mode and root cause? only when 7T is pushed shooting 50gr, 60gr, 70gr , to shooting 88s or 90/95 only. And there are quite a few that also claim they are shooting 50 - 55gr and 88s with a 7t and just Loving it with single ragged hole accuracy.
So who can we believe? Or what is the true failure mechanism?
The Latest Sierra reloading 2019 online handbook App claims: their projectiles will withstand a conservative 3600 FPS or 302,400 RPM before catastrophic skin failure. Is that claim holding up for all rifles and barrels? So I ask which one of you guys are ever safely and capable of Spinning 88s, or above or over 3600 FPS? None I would expect....
Other considerations: How many land configurations are there and what influence do they have? As does length of barrel? Has the barrel been lapped, broken in or brand new quite rough? How many variables and factors to must we consider?
Yet, as many claiming 7T catastrophic in flight failure, there are just as many claiming they shoot the lights out with 22-250 with all sizes and weights with the 7T. Again...what is going on? Some fail, some don’t.
what then is the root cause for the many successes or the many failures?

In retrospect ‘Cutting Edge’ Projectiles claims openly: ‘you can spin our bullets as fast as you want to —- they won’t blow apart’ ....and will competitively shoot single ragged holes — Blimey.
Because they are made of a solid machined copper alloy? Or is it something else? Grandad’s special non exploding sauce?
If true, there are several solid copper projectiles to consider in this category — GMX, BARNES, E-Tip, etc.... so that leaves one to consider as to how accurate will they shoot?.... I tried solids before and never really shot all that well.. unfortunately, some of these copper foul badly when pushed hard at high revs over 3000 FPS as well do many non solid copper projectiles......