New #2231 200gr SMK for F/TR
- Thread starter Quickoz
- Start date
XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
Most F-TR shooters I know are running 200gr bullets in the range of 2675, or maybe up to 2725 from ~30" barrels. I don't think anyone here is going to have much for you running them that fast. Maybe some of the guys in OZ who treat Lapua SRP brass as a single use consumable can help you.
AA1200, I hope you are shooting these out of a 300 win mag rifle and not a .308 rifle. 50+ grains of any powder would be pretty hard to stuff in a .308 case. Yet alone the pressures in order to get them at over 2800+ fps. Hope you still have your fingers to type back and your eyes to see this post
Hehe, it is out of a Barnard Model P .308 with a 34" barrel. I have never had a problem with those sort of velocities with a Lapua SP case, I was pushing 215 grains at c.2825fps with 49.5 - 50 grains of RS 60 behind them and could get 7+ uses out of an SP case (5 out of an LP case) and c.2,500 rounds before the barrel started to go.
Doing a pressure series with the Sierra 200s I got up to 52 grains (c.6% powder compression, which is fine with RS60) which started cratering the primers and I wouldn't want to shoot on a warm day. That gave velocities of c.2950 fps.
The tightest group over the chrono was at 51 grains with an ES of 16fps and an SD of 6.76 (average of 2889 fps). For long range I'd heartily recommend RS60, all of the top Match Rifle guys use it, having replaced N550, and it handles compression and temperature fluctuations very well. I've used it in sub-zero temperatures and 35C out in Australia without any noticeable changes in performance other than velocity increases in warm weather, but still a similar spread and group size.
Where in Australia can you buy RS60? I've had no luck at all finding it here
Unfortunately it was in rounds loaded in the UK and shipped over as part of a touring team. We couldn't find any suppliers, but that was back in 2016.
'Match Rifle'? (The 'MR' guys and girls coax some amazing MVs out of their rifles / ammunition through long barrels and even longer freebores.) I don't believe there is a US equivalent to this discipline.
https://nra.org.uk/learn-to-shoot/match-rifle/
http://www.nrcofs.org/MatchRifle.html
Reload Swiss RS60 and Alliant Reloder 17 are one and the same thing, so non European shooters who have access to the Alliant range can get it. I tried it in FTR and whilst MVs were superb, I never got the consistent precision I wanted.
memilanuk
Gold $$ Contributor
It's amazing what you can do if you consider your brass to be a consumable
On a more serious note, some of the newer powders can do some serious voodoo magic when it comes to speeds. Used to be H4350 was good for about 2700-2750 out of a 6.5CM behind a 140gn bullet. More than that was a recipe for loose primer pockets in 2-3 firings in the original Hornady brass. Nowadays... with small primer brass and the newer powders like RL16 and RL26, people are getting crazy velocities out of the same bullets - 2850-2900+ fps - supposedly with 'zero' pressure signs. Eventually that's bound to bleed over to other cartridges like the .308 Win. Between new bullet designs with relatively short bearing surfaces, tight meplats and high BCs, along with new powders and small primer brass... some of the crazy Aussie loads might become viable for the rest of us
dcali
Bullet Maker
It's amazing what you can do if you consider your brass to be a consumable
On a more serious note, some of the newer powders can do some serious voodoo magic when it comes to speeds. Used to be H4350 was good for about 2700-2750 out of a 6.5CM behind a 140gn bullet. More than that was a recipe for loose primer pockets in 2-3 firings in the original Hornady brass. Nowadays... with small primer brass and the newer powders like RL16 and RL26, people are getting crazy velocities out of the same bullets - 2850-2900+ fps - supposedly with 'zero' pressure signs. Eventually that's bound to bleed over to other cartridges like the .308 Win. Between new bullet designs with relatively short bearing surfaces, tight meplats and high BCs, along with new powders and small primer brass... some of the crazy Aussie loads might become viable for the rest of us
Nah, they go faster in the southern hemisphere. I think it has something to do with toilets.
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
Laurie - are you sure about that? According to the Reload Swiss website, RS60 is single based, whereas RL17 is purported to be double-based according to the information I can find. Just curious why the discrepancy in the two descriptions. Regardless, pushing 200s over 2800 fps out of a .308 F-TR gun would certainly bring some recoil management issues along with.
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Nitrochemie describes all of its Reload Swiss range as 'single-based' which is semantically correct, but IMO very misleading.
There are three types of handloader's propellants available in this regard:
1) single-based and left as such - nitrocellulose only in the finished product.
2) double-based as in all ball types - nitrocglycerin and nitrocellulose are the primary base ingredients. (Hence the double-based description.)
3) what starts as single-based and has nitroglycerin added as a near final manufacturing stage into the nitrocellulose kernels - 'high-energy powders'. Technically, if you are a chemist in the explosives business, this is not double-based hence Nitrochemie's avoidance of the term. Vihtavuori also uses the 'high-energy' description for its N500 series powders.
However, most handloaders regard anything with nitroglycerin in it as double-based whether that is technically correct or not. To them it is the presence or otherwise of nitroglycerin that matters and care little whether it was a base ingredient or an additive.
Nitrochemie EI-Niessen 145 is sold in bulk to Alliant ATK which markets it as Reloder 17 and the Swiss manufacturer also packages it as RS60 under the Reload Swiss brand for Europe - 100% identical. Before Nitrochemie Wimmins ag started to import its powders into the UK as Reload Swiss in kilo containers, EI-N145 was imported here by target shooting entrepreneur Nigel Cole-Hawkins in bulk and rebottled and retailed as 'Elcho-17', or E17 for short. ('Elcho' comes from the Elcho Shield - a longstanding team trophy in 1,200 yard 'Match Rifle' shooting shot for every summer at Bisley - and users were instructed to access the Alliant website and use Re17 loads data. Nigel has since become Nitrochemie's importer / distributor for RS powders under a new company called Propellants UK Ltd.)
There are both true single-based and 'high-energy' types mixed up in the Reload Swiss range with little or nothing to say which are which. As with the majority of Alliant grades made by Bofors in Sweden, Nitrochemie manufactured propellants whether Reload Swiss or Alliant branded have modest nitroglyerin content levels - 10% or less by weight - unlike some true double-based types and some Viht N500 series grades. (N540 is said to contain ~45% niytroglycerin by weight.) What kills barrels with some of these RS/Alliant powders isn't the nitroglycerin / energy content per se, rather the factor which gives them their outstanding performance advantage - the 'EI' much improved infused deterrents process that lengthens the early period of peak pressure burn after ignition. By stretching the time duration which also = bullet travel distance of the period of peak heat and pressure, the chamber end of the barrel receives a higher heat input overall plus an enlarged section of barrel being so affected.
Looking at Nigel's original product list / burning rate chart, the following rifle powder grades are high-energy with the 'EI' system:
RS40 (EI-N110)
RS52 (EI-N130)
RS60 (EI-N145) ............................. available in the US as Alliant Re17
RS70 (EI-N150)
RS80 (EI-N170EA) ......................... available in the US As Alliant Re33
'Elcho-50' (EI-K12.7mmEA) ............ available in the US as Alliant Re50
IIRC there is another Re grade of this type in the US that isn't available here under the Reload Swiss banner.
Nitrocellulose only Reload Swiss powders:
RS30 (WLP90)
RS50 (WLP220)
RS62 (WLP225)
RS50 and 62 are superb powders equivalent to Viht N140 and the 4350s, but will outperform both slightly. With the loss of H4831 thanks to new EU regulations, there has been a demand from F-Class shooters and others for a nitrocellulose only RS powder with the same burning rate as RS70 a putative RS72 in WLP form. This is being looked at in Switzerland and trial lots were expected in early 2018, but so far nothing has appeared.
Ok, guys...you lost me about 100 posts back...so I figured I would just buy some bullets, a barrel and just shoot these new Sierra 2231's to see what happens.
I ordered a Bartlien 1:9, 5R, 28” barrel from Southern Precision Rifles (www.bugholes.com) and had Greg prepare the barrel for a REMAGE with his Bugnut. He chambered it as a 308 win with a .110 freebore. Once I received it I spun it onto an action I had in the safe and set the headspace at 1.632".
Next I loaded 15 rounds, in groups of 3, starting at 41.5 – 43.5 gn of Varget in half grain increments. The other components were new, unfired, Alpha Munitions brass, Federal 210M primer, and the new Sierra 2231, 200 gn bullet. The bullet is seated .015 off the lands, measuring COAL 3.123” (they look like little javelins) with a CBTO measurement of 2.154”.
Attached is the resulting target from shooting those 5, 3 shot groups. As you will see, the groups did not do well UNTIL the very last group. I then proceeded to load 10 more rounds to shoot over the chronograph. All of my work up shooting is done at 6000 feet.
Here are the results:
High velocity: 2614.3
Low velocity: 2603.3
Average velocity: 2608.7
Velocity spread: 11.0
Standard deviation: 4.7
I probably could push this further, since there are absolutely no signs of pressure so far. I just figured that the time for analysis and talking about this new bullet, rifle twists and other theoretical stuff was over and someone just had to shoot them to see what happens. I have a FTR match this weekend (if it doesn't rain) where I plan to shoot this bullet at 1000 yards.
Wish me luck.
I ordered a Bartlien 1:9, 5R, 28” barrel from Southern Precision Rifles (www.bugholes.com) and had Greg prepare the barrel for a REMAGE with his Bugnut. He chambered it as a 308 win with a .110 freebore. Once I received it I spun it onto an action I had in the safe and set the headspace at 1.632".
Next I loaded 15 rounds, in groups of 3, starting at 41.5 – 43.5 gn of Varget in half grain increments. The other components were new, unfired, Alpha Munitions brass, Federal 210M primer, and the new Sierra 2231, 200 gn bullet. The bullet is seated .015 off the lands, measuring COAL 3.123” (they look like little javelins) with a CBTO measurement of 2.154”.
Attached is the resulting target from shooting those 5, 3 shot groups. As you will see, the groups did not do well UNTIL the very last group. I then proceeded to load 10 more rounds to shoot over the chronograph. All of my work up shooting is done at 6000 feet.
Here are the results:
High velocity: 2614.3
Low velocity: 2603.3
Average velocity: 2608.7
Velocity spread: 11.0
Standard deviation: 4.7
I probably could push this further, since there are absolutely no signs of pressure so far. I just figured that the time for analysis and talking about this new bullet, rifle twists and other theoretical stuff was over and someone just had to shoot them to see what happens. I have a FTR match this weekend (if it doesn't rain) where I plan to shoot this bullet at 1000 yards.
Wish me luck.
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I have shot two tournaments with this load. Overall, they did well...I had a little up and down impacts which I attribute to still fire-forming the brass. The windage held great. I am going back to load development to see if it will handle another half grain of powder since now the cases have been expanded. Still very happy with my choice of bullet.
I don't think the case is sitting in the bottom of the chamber when the bullet starts moving in the case neck. Nor when its fired.
First, came across this post searching for "case bottom chamber."
It's not gonna be there if an ejector in the bolt face is spring loaded. It'll be pushed forward centering the case shoulder perfectly in the chamber shoulder. Well centered case necks on case shoulders will therefore be well centered in chamber necks. Bullets follow suit. And the case body is usually clear of the chamber all the way around except at its pressure ring just in front of the extractor groove that's typically against the chamber.
In all instances the firing pin drives cases into chambers the same way. After the case shoulder stops against the chamber shoulder, the firing pin quickly dents the primer. Pins usually travel 8 to 10 fps and weighs 2 to 3 ounces.
Then the round fires a few microseconds later when the primer detonates, starts burning powder and when pressure is several dozen psi, the bullet starts moving out of the case neck.
This is easily proved by watching a chambered primed case go into battery then notice how it positions its mouth relative to the chamber neck as the firing pin does its thing. Easier to see if you first cut the barrel off at the chamber mouth.
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