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New #2231 200gr SMK for F/TR

Why do Sierra still advertise the outdated G1 BC? Are they really convinced to fool shooters with higher G1?
They use G1 because it is ok for their purposes. They are not wanting to fool others but instead, show others what their method's measurements show. It's as outdated as the metric system of measurements based on 1 ten-millionths of the arc from the equator to the north pole established by the French in the 1800's based on a decimal system they established in 1670.

Watched someone shoot 10 Sierra 30 caliber 190 HPMK's and 10 Berger 30 caliber 185 VLD bullets through 5 foot spaced chrono screens at 4 yards and 996 yards. Both went from 308 Win cases then through the close screens around 2580 fps. The Berger bullets lost about 40 fps more velocity at 996 yards than the Sierra's did. That's a valid comparison of bullet drag coefficient. All others at short ranges are a calculated estimate and prediction.

This BC issue is akin to accuracy or precision measurements. Depending on how shots are fired and their quantity, conditions and standards, the same load can have different end numbers.
 
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I'm looking forward to dabbling in FTR this year with these.

This is getting off subject a bit, but if you mess with them enough you will find that BCs are not a constant. A person can take two barrels made at the same time and chambered with the same reamer and get slightly different results. Throw in other variables and you will likely come to the conclusion that you have to tune BC and velocity slightly for that load in that rifle, assuming you want elevation to be accurate to +/- <0.1mil out to 1200+ yards. Segmented BCs freqently are needed for the best drop data, even when using the G7 standard. Freqently a single tuned G7 will be off by .1-.3 mils at 700-1k when correct at 1200yds, or vice versa. BCs are more of a tool than hard data in my experience.
 
. . ... if you mess with them enough you will find that BCs are not a constant.
Sierra Bullets proved that decades ago and printed the results in their reloading manual a long time ago.

Same bullets shot with the same lot of components through chrono screens at 50 yards showed a small percentage spread in bullet BC numbers calculated based on time of flight between screen sets. Even bullets leaving the barrel at the same speed had different velocities downrange.

All bullets are not perfectly balanced. The more so they are, the more drag they have. BC drops as a result. Good match bullets can have a 1% spread. Use your favorite ballistic software to see what difference that makes for a given muzzle velocity at down range places.

The best bullets, when seated with jacket material peeled off by sharp edged case mouths, are unbalanced before they are shot.
 
I understand the concept of squeezing the ballon. Question is, why the added twist? the length of the bullet or the surface area of the bearing surface?

Maybe I should start another thread?
Fatboy, I think your question is interesting. A new thread and title might get a few more people paying attention to your question. My opinion is not worth writing on this one - I want to hear the bullet and barrel makers’ and ballisticians’ views.
 
The primary factors that determine the rotational speed needed to fully stabilise a bullet are:

(1) its length (as measured in calibres as a 1.25 inch long 0.224 cal bullet needs a far higher rotational speed than the same length 0.308, the former being 5.58 calibres long, and the thirty 4.06 calibres.) Small changes in OAL length result in disproportionate changes in twist rate requirements

(2) its weight. Contrary to common belief, if you have two bullets of the same form and overall length but of different weights, the heavier one needs less stabilisation, hence slower rotation and a slower rifling twist rate. Because a heavier bullet is also usually a longer bullet, weight was used as a shorthand method of advising twist rates. However as modern match designs have become longer and longer for their weight, this is now a poor yardstick.

(3) Form. A flat-base bullet needs less stabilisation than an equivalent boat-tail design. A good example is the Berger 88gn HBC Flat Base varmint and one-time match bullet. Berger Bullets advises a 10-inch twist for this model despite it having relatively long VLD type secant ogive nose section. The 90gn BT Match is recommended a 9-inch twist rate. The Miller Twist Rules formula is for BT designs and if used on FB bullets overstates the required twist rate

Sierra says the new 200gn MK has a nominal OAL of 1.585 inches. That compares to the 'old' 7-calibre radius ogive 200gn SMK's length of 1.387". That's less than two tenths of an inch increase, (0.198") or 14.3 in percentage terms but as noted, a relatively small length increase in the same weight / calibre bullet has a disproportionate effect on stability requirements.

Assuming a 308 can give it 2,650 fps MV in a match rifle and running that through the Miller Rules spreadsheet or equivalent you get Sg values for different twist rates of:

10 ............. 1.35
9.5 ............ 1.50
9.0 ............ 1.67

That's under standard ballistic conditions (ambient temperature 59-deg F; atmospheric pressure 29.92 inches of mercury which is the meteorological 'standard' for sea level on an average day). Shooting at high altitudes (reducing atmospheric pressure) and/or in high temperatures will increase those Sg values giving you more latitude on twist rates. Shooting at sea level on a day below freezing with a high-pressure anti-cyclonic weather system raising atmospheric pressure has the opposite effect and reduces the values so higher rotational speeds are needed.

Assuming a 300 Win Mag can push this bullet at 3,050 fps, the three twist rates see:

10 ............. 1.42
9.5 ............ 1.57
9.0 ............ 1.75

(To show how bullet length affects Sg, all other things being equal, here are the values for the old 1.387" OAL 200gn SMK at the 308 2,650 fps MV under standard conditions:

10 ............. 2.00
9.5 ............ 2.21
9.0 ............ 2.46

An 11-twist barrel is fine for this bullet giving an Sg of 1.65)

I don't want to tell people what they already know, but I suspect Fatboy is asking what is this Sg thing and how do you calibrate it?

Sg is the coefficient of stability. In theory, a bullet is stable (ie will not tumble in flight) with an Sg value of 1.000. In practice this has been found to be much too low for both accuracy and to account for the wide range of conditions people shoot in. (The prototype Stoner XM16 rifle used the old 222 Rem's 14-inch twist until the US Army shot it in its Arctic Warfare School ranges at Thule in Iceland in winter where it couldn't hit the required 500 metre target at all never mind group - the XM16E1 follow-up version changed to the 12 inch twist for that reason.)

For many years 1.4 was the recommended minimum Sg. In practice, Sg values of 1.2 and above would see bullets group OK and apparently perform well especially at short range. However about five, six years ago new research showed that a minimum Sg of 1.5 was needed not only to stabilise the bullet at all ranges but to obtain its listed BC value. Or to put it the other way round, twist rates / rotational speeds that were below the 1.5 threshold increased drag slowing the bullet quicker.

So, going back to the new 200gn pointed MK at 308 Win velocities, the 10-twist Sg (1.35) will see the bullet group OK at most likely all distances in summer, but it will increase its drag / reduce its BC from that claimed by Sierra. (The Berger Bullets' Twist rate calculator

http://www.bergerbullets.com/twist-rate-calculator/

not only calculates Sg values but if they fall short gives an estimate of the BC reduction. Taking the similar but shorter Berger 200.20X bullet at 2,650 fps, a barrel twist rate of 10.7 inches produces the 1.35 Sg value for this model and the program says that reduces the BC by an estimated 4% from 0.328 to 0.314 G7.)

The 9.5 inch twist rate is right on 1.50 Sg so should suffice, but no doubt Sierra has reduced the requirement (or increased it in reality) to a 9-twist to give greater margins for adverse conditions.

There is another factor in these new generation super-long bullets - the issue that intrigues Fatboy, ie what is different about these high-BC bullets. It is as said in other posts that the nose sections have been made longer and longer and other bits, primarily the central bearing surface section have been shortened to compensate. This reduces the dynamic stability of the bullet (different from gyroscopic stability which rotating the bullet in the rifling achieves) making it likely to be overall less stable in flight especially at long ranges where velocities drop into the turbulent transonic zone (MACH 1.2 to 1.0). Some extra gyroscopic stability is no bad thing for the FTR shooter who competes at 1,000 yards.

Bullet nose shapes are described in terms of a radius in calibres. The original 200gn SMK is measured at a radius of 7.30 calibres (part of a circle whose radius is 0.308 X 7.3 = 2.25"). if the new high-BC model is as per the rest of the new generation MK family, that has increased to a whopping 28-calibres or thereabouts. 28 x 0.308 = 8.6" radius circle giving a very much longer and much less sharply curved nose. That reduces drag but creates a much more finicky design to tune in the barrel and makes life difficult for the designer to make the bullet 'well balanced' in its flight performance at all speeds in all conditions. Read Bryan Litz's Modern Advancements in Long range Shooting Vol II and you see that Bryan is starting to think in terms of yet tighter twist rates and higher Sg values for the ELR or other shooter where transonic speeds are issues. He does tests with 308 with an 8-twist rifling rate barrel and sees improvements.

Personally, I'm beginning to think that we're in danger of looking through the wrong end of the telescope and that instead of moving to six-inch twists it may be that we need to stop making bullets ever longer especially for use in 308 Win. The 200gn new SMK is longer than the Berger 200.20X - I'm waiting an watching now to see how well it performs throughout a season or two. BC isn't everything!
 
Thumbs up for Laurie on this one.

Getting into the painful part of the procedure - the math that provides the Sg is to the best of my minor ability to replicate is:

Sg = (30 * bullet weight) / ((twist/caliber)**2 * caliber***3 * length/caliber* ((1+(length/caliber)**2 *(velocity/2800)**1/3 * ((temp + 460) /59+460) 29.92/pressure)

some familiar faces are: 59 and 29.92, other not so familiar are 460, others like "ball park" are 2800

all this seems like a very carefully executed approximation using fundamental math like multiply, add, divide, & exponential stuff.

take a look at how this starts... 30 * bullet weight, like 200 * 30 = 6000

I can see the major players being length, caliber, weight and temperature.

applying the Miller stuff to the 1.585 long Sierra 200 grain MK, with 42.0 g. Varget @ 2441 fps velocity (no plutonium in Varget) .308 W, COAL of about 2.85
the Sg would be 1.32 with 10 twist, Sg 1.62 with 9 twist,

Using the same bullet with my favorite .300 Win Mag load @ 2826 fps but handicapped with a 10 twist & H1000 powder the Sg would be 1.38 or "marginal stability" not flying as could be expected.

The affects of velocity with the same 1-9 twist and bullet, same everything else, like standard stuff.

@ 2826 fps Sg = 1.71, 300 Win Mag (Hodgdon manual)
@ 2441 fps Sg = 1.62, .308 Win (Hodgdon manual)

assuming a use of a .300 Win mag loaded with H1000 with a velocity of 2826 and 1-9 twist but changing temperatures. It can be seen how temperatures affect the Sg.

@ 50 degrees F Sg= 1.68 (real close to the comparatively tiny .308 Win @ 59 degrees)
@ 98 degrees F Sg =1.83 (hot air lots of stabilization)

Practical applications would be shooting elks in sub freezing temperatures with long pointy 200 grain bullets using common 1-10 twist barrels, so measure the bullet length.
Another, would be a certain police dept. armorer ordering cases of .223 ammo loaded with 69 grain bullets for use in 1-12 twist weapons.

I get caught up on the businesses of bullets having same forms but different weights but the caliber part of the Miller stuff might fix that. There is absolutely no way that I ever could get 2650 fps out of my 23 inch long .308 W and assuming a 20 fps per inch velocity increase, a 33 inch barrel would be needed. I guess the .308 W could be loaded long @ 65 K psi to get to 2650 fps, but that is why I have a .300 Win mag - no sweat velocities and no rules other than common sense.

*********** edit

I screwed up by saying velocity when I should have said Sg when velocity remained constant but temperature changed. This assumes selection of a temp change immune powder.

********** edit

a Sg = 1.32 @ 2440 fps or so out of my stubby barrel .308 would be considered "marginal stability" that is, good groups but max ballistic potential of bullet would not be reached - I would go for a 1-9 whatever the velocity would be. The ballistic wizards would say the max BC G1 or G7 would not be reached because the bullet would not be completely stabilized.

The Miller program puts out a Sg = 1.27 for the new 200 gr. Sierra MK @ 27 degrees, 2660 fps, 1-10 twist.

The ballistic wizards continue to rely on the Miller calculations.
 
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I've shot about 100 of these this week in temps from 27°F to 52°F.

Using a .308win, Lapua Palma brass, 1:10 Twist, 30 inch barrel, .170 freebore thats grown a little. Base to tip 3.230 inches. Velocities between 2600 and 2660.

They'll shoot in my 10 but i'll probably order a 9 or 9.5.

Pictured next to a Berger 200-20x
20180116_075301.jpg
 
Damn... You guys got them already? Up here in Canada it will be another 2 months before we"ll get them. :(

I dont think that will be enough time to get them in and order a barrel before the first match of the year. Jdne5b, what ideal fb are you thinking now that you made a few?


Also do you have and of the new Hornady's ElD's for comparison?
 
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Not sure on ideal freebore. Maybe in the .130-.140 range? Seating them this long doesnt bother me too much. This barrel has about 1200 on it now, I just need to see how much more the throat moves.

Heres a little seating depth test from this morning. 600 yards.

Red - touch (wind got me)
Blue - .003 off
Green -.006 off
Black - .009 off
Silver - .012 off

20180121_143417(0).jpg
20180121_144550.jpg
 
Why do Sierra still advertise the outdated G1 BC? Are they really convinced to fool shooters with higher G1?
I don’t know but it’s annoying. There is no good reason to use a banded G1 for a bullet like this. They’ve done it that way for decades, but when the G1 varies this much, it’s time to move on.
 
I've shot about 100 of these this week in temps from 27°F to 52°F.

Using a .308win, Lapua Palma brass, 1:10 Twist, 30 inch barrel, .170 freebore thats grown a little. Base to tip 3.230 inches. Velocities between 2600 and 2660.

They'll shoot in my 10 but i'll probably order a 9 or 9.5.

Pictured next to a Berger 200-20x
View attachment 1033188
Could you put an unseated bullet beside both your cartridges (tips matching up) so we can compare were the base and the shank of the bullet is? It maybe be very similar to the Jacks which only require a 0.120" FB. Would you be able to measure the bullet itself for length be interesting to see some real world figure.
 
I've got a 30-338 Lap Imp with a 28in. 1-10tw Lilja that I'd like to shoot these new Sierra 200 grainers in. I'm currently pushing the 230 Bergers 3250 and if these 200's have the same BC as the 230 Bergers and I can push them around 3400 fps that could take things to another level.
 
Personally, I'm beginning to think that we're in danger of looking through the wrong end of the telescope and that instead of moving to six-inch twists it may be that we need to stop making bullets ever longer especially for use in 308 Win. The 200gn new SMK is longer than the Berger 200.20X - I'm waiting an watching now to see how well it performs throughout a season or two. BC isn't everything!

I agree. There is a very single minded focus on BC these days, which is important, but what people fail to think about is that the added length and weight that give these bullets their amazing BC's also contributes to their temperamental nature and lesser accuracy.

I also wonder just how finicky a secant ogive really is to tune. I know the conventional wisdom says that they're responsible for all manner of difficulty but how and why?

Is it not just as likely that it's because nobody makes short secant ogive bullets, and the real culprit is that long bullets are just not as accurate as short bullets? (Or put another way, longer bullets require higher quality than shorter bullets to shoot as well - they have to be straight and concentric, or they'll be penalized by mother nature more than short bullets with the same flaws.)

The reality is that long secant ogives provide as significant reduction in drag over tangent ogives, and if we're going to continue to take hits off the BC pipe, we're going to have to learn to live with the secant - tangent ogives just can't hack it. I personally don't believe it's a problem. I think the difficulty in manufacturing long secant ogives with perfect precision is. But that's just speculation on my part. Everyone's got an anecdote, but I've never seen a good test of similar bullets that vary only by their ogive type (which is in itself difficult because tangent ogives weigh significantly more than secant ogives of the same length).

I'm not sure that modern bullets aren't good enough to shoot long secant ogive bullets accurately. I know I've seen guys clean up with VLD's in F TR. But the longer they stretch those bullets, the tougher it will be to keep them accurate. I have a feeling we'll settle in on something in the 190-200 grain range with a long, fairly aggressive secant ogive and a longer than normal boat tail as the best all around .308 bullet for F TR.

One thing I've been thinking about a lot is to come up with a design that just punts on the idea of making it through the transonic region. To focus purely on supersonic drag and optimize for mid range (maybe out to 1000, but certainly no more). I don't think the big manufacturers would make such a bullet because of the endless customer service headaches, but it'd be interesting to try.
 
They use G1 because it is ok for their purposes. They are not wanting to fool others but instead, show others what their method's measurements show. It's as outdated as the metric system of measurements based on 1 ten-millionths of the arc from the equator to the north pole established by the French in the 1800's based on a decimal system they established in 1670.

Watched someone shoot 10 Sierra 30 caliber 190 HPMK's and 10 Berger 30 caliber 185 VLD bullets through 5 foot spaced chrono screens at 4 yards and 996 yards. Both went from 308 Win cases then through the close screens around 2580 fps. The Berger bullets lost about 40 fps more velocity at 996 yards than the Sierra's did. That's a valid comparison of bullet drag coefficient. All others at short ranges are a calculated estimate and prediction.

This BC issue is akin to accuracy or precision measurements. Depending on how shots are fired and their quantity, conditions and standards, the same load can have different end numbers.

I disagree. Sierra is the only company that publishes a velocity varying G1 BC instead of a "best fit" G1 or G7. That alone makes it impossible to compare Sierra bullet's drag performance to other manufacturers without running both through a ballistics calculator (and one that will handle banded BC's at that). It would be trivial for Sierra to publish BCs like all their competitors do. I won't speculate as to their motives for not doing so, but it's certainly not because it helps their customers.
 
I disagree. Sierra is the only company that publishes a velocity varying G1 BC instead of a "best fit" G1 or G7. That alone makes it impossible to compare Sierra bullet's drag performance to other manufacturers without running both through a ballistics calculator (and one that will handle banded BC's at that). It would be trivial for Sierra to publish BCs like all their competitors do. I won't speculate as to their motives for not doing so, but it's certainly not because it helps their customers.
Sierra Infinity software handles banded and fixed BC's. Try it out.
 
Sierra Infinity software handles banded and fixed BC's. Try it out.
So does JBM and the calculator I wrote. There is zero chance of me giving Sierra $40 for point mass software that's free all over the internet. The point is that I don't want to try anything out. I want to simply compare two numbers. One person at Sierra could figure out the G1 and G7 BC's for all of their bullets in a matter of hours. It's my opinion that they should do that.
 

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