New 2019 NRA HP rules...

[davidjoe]

There’s nothing to say every match a range offers must be an NRA rules match. I’m aware of prone matches that permit both silencers and brakes and consciously make no reference to the NRA rules at all as being applicable. Pair firing, for example, I don’t recall being compatible with NRA FClass rules.

 

[Erud]

There’s nothing to say every match a range offers must be an NRA rules match. I’m aware of prone matches that permit both silencers and brakes and consciously make no reference to the NRA rules at all as being applicable. Pair firing, for example, I don’t recall being compatible with NRA FClass rules.

What wouldn’t be compatible? Have you ever been to a Fullbore match like the Spirit of America at Raton?

 

[davidjoe]

What wouldn’t be compatible? Have you ever been to a Fullbore match like the Spirit of America at Raton?

Because in FClass, you are permitted to stop and wait on favorable wind conditions as long as you want, so long as you finish inside the time limit.

In pair firing you aren’t allowed to stall and wait, you have only 45 seconds to shoot, I believe.

 

[Keith Glasscock]

And that would force competitors to read the wind...

I’m a proponent of pair fired matches. Let’s do it!

 

[memilanuk]

Pair firing, for example, I don’t recall being compatible with NRA FClass rules.

Incorrect. It's not necessarily compatible with the NRA High Power Rifle rule book... which is why there is a whole 'nother rule book from the NRA on 'International Fullbore'.

As far as F-class is concerned, the rules are 99% the same, other than the course of fire.

And F-class, in other countries, is *all* pair-fire. Except maybe Australia - but they're weird

 

[davidjoe]

Incorrect. It's not necessarily compatible with the NRA High Power Rifle rule book... which is why there is a whole 'nother rule book from the NRA on 'International Fullbore'.

As far as F-class is concerned, the rules are 99% the same, other than the course of fire.

And F-class, in other countries, is *all* pair-fire. Except maybe Australia - but they're weird

Politely disagree. F Class is merely Section 22 of the NRA High Power rule book, so any references to F Class Rules necessarily include the former. These are not two different rule books. As Section 22 commences:

“In all cases where specific rules are not given here, the appropriate rules for High Power Rifle competition shall be used.”

Rule 8.1 says: “Time is not checked on each shot.”

There is no provision for pair firing in Rule 8. This is not “maybe” incompatible, but rather, 100% incompatible, with the totally separate fullbore NRA rule that does address pair firing. That rule requires a shot within a timed 45 seconds of the completed opposite shooter’s shot.

I see no compatibility between the right to wait until the last couple of minutes to even start shooting, as allowed in FClass rules, and pair firing.

 

[memilanuk]

You can politely disagree all you want. I've shot the matches, here there and else where.

Like I said, there is a whole 'nother NRA 'International Fullbore Prone'... with it's own section 22.

 

[Erud]

Fullbore is usually fired with two or three to the mound, including F-class Fullbore. There are Fullbore matches shot all over the country. They’re a lot of fun, you should try one. You’ll work out a whole different set of skills.

 

[Mark Walker in TX]

http://rulebooks.nra.org/documents/pdf/compete/RuleBooks/Fullbore/fb-book.pdf

 

[Jetjock1]

Incorrect. It's not necessarily compatible with the NRA High Power Rifle rule book... which is why there is a whole 'nother rule book from the NRA on 'International Fullbore'.

As far as F-class is concerned, the rules are 99% the same, other than the course of fire.

And F-class, in other countries, is *all* pair-fire. Except maybe Australia - but they're weird

In the 2018 rule changes whaichhavenot yet benpostedthe following special range operations wee added:

Addendum I - SPECIAL RANGE OPERATIONS

At the discretion of the Match Director, the following methods of range operations are recommended:


String Firing- Single competitor firing one shot at a time within the specified time limit. This may be accomplished in three or more relays with one competitor scoring and another operating the targets.


Two on a firing point- Two competitors on the firing point. Competitor A is on the right and competitor B is on the left. After competitor A fires a shot, competitor B scores that shot. Then competitor B fires a shot and competitor A scores for B, alternating in this way until each competitor has completed the required number of shots in that string or match.


Three on a firing point - With three competitors on the firing point, competitor A is positioned on the right, competitor B in the middle, and competitor C on the left. Competitor A fires and competitor C scores for A. Competitor B then fires and competitor A scores for B. Competitor C then fires and competitor B scores for C. This sequence is repeated until each competitor has completed the required number of shots in that string or match.


Squadded Firing - In individual matches, competitors are assigned to firing points in squads. Competitor A fires first and the last competitor in the squad is assigned scoring duties for the first competitor. While the competitor A is firing, competitor B is in preparation period. When competitor A completes the string, competitor A moves back off the firing line and competitor B moves to the firing line and begins to fire. Competitor A assumes scoring duties for competitor B. This rotation continues until all competitors have completed their strings. The Range Officer in charge of the target concerned will see that no competitor exceeds the time limit. The time each competitor commences firing will be noted on his or her score card, and on the score board if one is used. The Range Officer may move a competitor from one squad to another when another target has completed firing. (Squadded firing works best with dedicated target pullers/electronic targets and a large number of competitors).

In 2019 we added the following which have not yet been posted:
(1) Two or more competitors on the Firing Line - The time allowance will be 45 seconds per shot for all ranges. The time allowed starts from the command to commence fire and the target is raised in the case of the first shot by the first competitor. On subsequent shots, the time allowed starts from the time the target has been scored and recorded for the previous shot. When a competitor has been timed by a range official and has exceeded the allowed time limit, the competitor will be warned ONE time without penalty. When a competitor exceeds the allowed time after the first warning, the range official will forfeit the value of that shot for that competitor.

Jetjock

 

[davidjoe]

I pair fired F under international rules in Ottawa. Pair firing with timing of shots does not appear in the Highpower (FClass) Rules, that’s the original point. It only appears in Fullbore rules. Highpower rules actually say you cannot time individual shots.

Pair firing appears only in the Fullbore Rules, which includes as an “accommodation” to F-Class shooters, that they can join along side. This does not mean the Fullbore Rules are a whole separate set of FClass rules or that there’s two kinds of FClass.


Fullbore Rule:

22. F-CLASS RIFLE RULES
NOTE: these rules are provided for the conduct of F-class competition either separately or in conjunction with NRA International Fullbore Prone competition. Scores fired in these competitions using the F-class modified targets will be used for classification.
In all cases where specific rules are not given here, the appropriate rules for High Power Rifle competition shall be used.

The fullbore rule makes it very clear that FClass equipment may join, but is not part of fullbore, and it refers back to Highpower rules, and then repeats them.

The Rule 3 equipment list of highpower rules includes FClass rifles. Fullbore Rule 3 does not. FClass rifles don’t meet the Fullbore equipment rules. They are merely included “guests” at fullbore matches. There’s only one set of FClass Rules, and then there is Fullbore, which lets FC mimic their course.

Yes, you could conceivably change the name of a monthly match to fullbore and pair fire even if you thought you’d only have FClass rifles show up. But calling such a match a monthly FClass would be odd imo, and you’d definitely not want to describe the match as under highpower rules.

 

[XTR]

Last I checked, F-class is shot off the ground, often the very *un*level ground, and more often than not, *not* from under a cover (@ 1k). The equipment may be very close to the same as BR, but the course of fire is not.

/rant on

I still think that more Fullbore/pair-fire and less string-fire would fix the whole damn problem. That, or knock off letting people start moving their 50 lbs of crap to the line *before* the two minute pre-prep warning. Not having 10+ minutes to set up and dig in their artillery emplacements might put the kabosh to some of this 'perfect tracking' BS. If you want the extra time, do it on your own clock. Better yet, run the matches ala Fullbore, where you *don't* have the extra time on the clock - because the other person(s) on the mound would surely object, cuz it comes out of *their* time.

/rant off

Unfortunately I am limited to a single like


In the end this disagreement will always come down to those on one side who score better/enjoy the game more when they can chase spotters, and those who score better and/or enjoy the game more when more or less uniform delays make each shot more of a unique wind call.

There is no doubt in my mind that the latter of those two is harder. That's why we all want fast pit service, but the one thing that any competitor wants is for the field to be level. I agree that E-targets have the ability to level the delays, but I still want this game to be a wind reading game. Personally I'd fully support to having no delay, and a requirement that all matches fired on E targets be pair fired. All problems would be solved. So you can tell where I fall in those two groups I outline above.

Now I have to go get about another 400 rounds loaded for a week of pair firing at the Sinclair's in North Carolina.

 

[flintcreek6412]

I pair fired F under international rules in Ottawa. Pair firing with timing of shots does not appear in the Highpower (FClass) Rules, that’s the original point. It only appears in Fullbore rules. Highpower rules actually say you cannot time individual shots.

Pair firing appears only in the Fullbore Rules, which includes as an “accommodation” to F-Class shooters, that they can join along side. This does not mean the Fullbore Rules are a whole separate set of FClass rules or that there’s two kinds of FClass.


Fullbore Rule:

22. F-CLASS RIFLE RULES
NOTE: these rules are provided for the conduct of F-class competition either separately or in conjunction with NRA International Fullbore Prone competition. Scores fired in these competitions using the F-class modified targets will be used for classification.
In all cases where specific rules are not given here, the appropriate rules for High Power Rifle competition shall be used.

The fullbore rule makes it very clear that FClass equipment may join, but is not part of fullbore, and it refers back to Highpower rules, and then repeats them.

The Rule 3 equipment list of highpower rules includes FClass rifles. Fullbore Rule 3 does not. FClass rifles don’t meet the Fullbore equipment rules. They are merely included “guests” at fullbore matches. There’s only one set of FClass Rules, and then there is Fullbore, which lets FC mimic their course.

Yes, you could conceivably change the name of a monthly match to fullbore and pair fire even if you thought you’d only have FClass rifles show up. But calling such a match a monthly FClass would be odd imo, and you’d definitely not want to describe the match as under highpower rules.

Not how I read the High Power rules. Rule 3 only lists Service, Any and Match with Palma thrown in. Certainly you don't consider F class the same as Any Rifle? HP does not mention F class until rule 22....just like Fullbore. And actually Rule 22 in HP has the exact same "NOTE" at the beginning as FB rules.

And if F class is NOT a part of FB as you state......how on earth do I possess a F-Class Fullbore classification?


Since I'm an FTR guy and I read the rules, I do know when we shoot FB(twice a year for a FB regional and FB state) I need to change my board under my bipod because FB limits it to 1/2" and not the 3/4" I use in HP because Fullbore does have it's own F class rules.

 

[davidjoe]

Flint, you have a point on the language of Rule 3.

Anyhow there’s a phrase that’s repeated in both the F-Open and F/TR equipment sections of highpower rules:

“This discipline is a modification of high power prone shooting, not a form of bench rest and should not be construed as such.”

In section 22 of the Fullbore rules, it also says ... “a modification of high power prone shooting...”.

And as I mentioned above the Fullbore preamble of FClass section 22 refers us when silent to the “High Power Rules.”

So, at least three places in the Fullbore FClass Rules, “high power” as a discipline or its specific rules are invoked.

Fullbore is not mentioned at all in the Highpower Rules to my knowledge, on the other hand.

Jetlock’s timely inclusion above, of a new and unpublished, detailed addition to Highpower Rules specifically permitting pair firing and the timing of shots should indicate to us that the NRA didn’t think it was already captured by the Rules.

Separately, I’m not amongst the good, “fast” shooters. Maybe someday. I used a bipod (Harris swivel) in F-Open though about 2015. I was the last and only one I knew of when I stopped. Consistent 96.5% long range ceiling average that way, requiring some begrudged equipment conformity to get HM.

Most of my open rifles are still on tactical stocks requiring a forend shoe to even ride a in a front rest. I joke that “pure” Open gear is so ungainly and specialized it does not even warrant the classification of “weapon”. So my preference of no delay is not for ease of a personal high score because my scores, the ones that are decent, are obtained about the most difficult (slow load, angled rear stock, steer from rear pinch bag) and unconventional way possible and through wind picking.

But I’d like to become proficient at fast shooting. No delay doesn’t make anyone shoot faster than they want to. It just gives those that want to explore that strategy the ability.

 

[dannyjbiggs]

Incorrect. It's not necessarily compatible with the NRA High Power Rifle rule book... which is why there is a whole 'nother rule book from the NRA on 'International Fullbore'.

As far as F-class is concerned, the rules are 99% the same, other than the course of fire.

And F-class, in other countries, is *all* pair-fire. Except maybe Australia - but they're weird

'Weird", Monte?! I thoroughly enjoyed their "squad firing". Get 20-50 competitors on one target, and each assigned a firing order sequence number, with 7 to 10 minutes per person. If one is toward the end of the squad, he can calculate about when he will be up to fire, and can make it back to the bar for a few. If one is near the front, he can make it back to the bar for a few after firing!! A great system.

Dan

 

[memilanuk]

I was referring to specific persons, not their shooting style... but that too

 

[David101]

Internationally F-open and FTR are not a pairs firing event however they can be. The Sling Shooters/Target Rifle or otherwise known as Fullbore is certainly pair fired at Bisley and at the world championships.
Anyway I was posting regarding the Time Delay issue with Electronic targets. The international ICFRA have implemented a 10 second delay. It has been mandated an instantaneous confirmation of registration of a hit on the target, with the value and position to appear after 10 seconds.

I think implementing rules like that also shows that pairs firing is not always implemented as it would be irrelevant if that was the case.

So it is even more interesting if the American F class rule book people only implement a 7 second delay. It only puts your everyday practicing away from what you can expect if you ever compete internationally.

 

[GSS]

In the 2018 rule changes whaichhavenot yet benpostedthe following special range operations wee added:

Addendum I - SPECIAL RANGE OPERATIONS

At the discretion of the Match Director, the following methods of range operations are recommended:


String Firing- Single competitor firing one shot at a time within the specified time limit. This may be accomplished in three or more relays with one competitor scoring and another operating the targets.


Two on a firing point- Two competitors on the firing point. Competitor A is on the right and competitor B is on the left. After competitor A fires a shot, competitor B scores that shot. Then competitor B fires a shot and competitor A scores for B, alternating in this way until each competitor has completed the required number of shots in that string or match.


Three on a firing point - With three competitors on the firing point, competitor A is positioned on the right, competitor B in the middle, and competitor C on the left. Competitor A fires and competitor C scores for A. Competitor B then fires and competitor A scores for B. Competitor C then fires and competitor B scores for C. This sequence is repeated until each competitor has completed the required number of shots in that string or match.


Squadded Firing - In individual matches, competitors are assigned to firing points in squads. Competitor A fires first and the last competitor in the squad is assigned scoring duties for the first competitor. While the competitor A is firing, competitor B is in preparation period. When competitor A completes the string, competitor A moves back off the firing line and competitor B moves to the firing line and begins to fire. Competitor A assumes scoring duties for competitor B. This rotation continues until all competitors have completed their strings. The Range Officer in charge of the target concerned will see that no competitor exceeds the time limit. The time each competitor commences firing will be noted on his or her score card, and on the score board if one is used. The Range Officer may move a competitor from one squad to another when another target has completed firing. (Squadded firing works best with dedicated target pullers/electronic targets and a large number of competitors).

In 2019 we added the following which have not yet been posted:
(1) Two or more competitors on the Firing Line - The time allowance will be 45 seconds per shot for all ranges. The time allowed starts from the command to commence fire and the target is raised in the case of the first shot by the first competitor. On subsequent shots, the time allowed starts from the time the target has been scored and recorded for the previous shot. When a competitor has been timed by a range official and has exceeded the allowed time limit, the competitor will be warned ONE time without penalty. When a competitor exceeds the allowed time after the first warning, the range official will forfeit the value of that shot for that competitor.

Jetjock

Jetjock, Any word on when the "Official / Final / Complete" 2019 rule changes will be posted?

Or has anyone talked to Aaron Farmer recently about when they will be posted ?

I'm assuming when the official / final latest changes get released they will be posted at the webpage below.
https://competitions.nra.org/competition-resources/rule-books/

If that webpage is not the correct place and anyone knows where the correct location where they will be posted, please share the link.

Thanks, George

 

[GSS]

Ok, I have been reading the E-target thread since it started and all of the discussion seemed to be going in circles...so I wrote to Aaron Farmer and he provided me with the rule changes voted on in January...I have attached them, however as you work your way through them you will have to remember that they are in their raw format, you will have to break out your previous copy of the rules and insert/modify it with this information...they are still working on the format that will be hopefully posted later this month...

You will notice right away that these rule changes are very heavily invested in E-targets...

Must be the formatting is taking more time that they expected.... and even Jetjock is out if the loop on this one... :-(

Guess some of us may potentially just have to modify our Stata Prone Championship Match Bulletins last minute if needed as we are getting well into the shooting season now even in the Northern states that have fairly short summer seasons.

I feel bad for Aaron as I know he is working hard and shorthanded.

 

[GSS]

Jetjock, Any word on when the "Official / Final / Complete" 2019 rule changes will be posted?

Or has anyone talked to Aaron Farmer recently about when they will be posted ?

I'm assuming when the official / final latest changes get released they will be posted at the webpage below.
https://competitions.nra.org/competition-resources/rule-books/

If that webpage is not the correct place and anyone knows where the correct location where they will be posted, please share the link.

Thanks, George

Looks like that was the right location as they are now posted.
https://competitions.nra.org/media/7934/2019-high-power-update.pdf

Now we see why they took so long in the editing / formatting dept....

This will be yet another reason for people that dislike electronics to say "we should stay on paper for everything"...

Even the rulebooks....
Electronics just aren't good enough yet... LOL