New 155gr 6.5mm Berger on the horizon?

[onelastshot]

The million dollar question is what type of twist is going to be necessary to stabilize this bullet. I'm not going to purchase a new barrel; looks like this bullet will require at least a 6.5 twist.

 

[284winner]

Anybody that shoots this bullet looking for an improvement over any of the 140+ grain variants will need a bunch of speed to make this bullet worth using. I'm thinking a 7-7.5 twist will make it at those speeds. Im nobody so I'm sure some guys here can do better math than I. My head aches just reading what some guys here lay down in technical rhetoric. I try to follow but really no success.

 

[Willie]

The million dollar question is what type of twist is going to be necessary to stabilize this bullet. I'm not going to purchase a new barrel; looks like this bullet will require at least a 6.5 twist.

No one will know the twist for sure until the specs are announced. My gut tells me that a 1:8 will work as most every 6.5 shooter is running that twist rate. Why would Berger develop a bullet that would not work for most of the existing barrels. Even if we rebarrel, it would take a long time for barrel companies to fill the demand.
Just a WAG on my part.

 

[muleystalker]

Well the 195 7mm hasn't really been the "game changer" everyone thought it would be, I suspect these will be the same.
Matt P

If you really look at 195 Bergers they are a game changer, for what they're designed for, a long range hunting bullet for for bigger cartridges. They rock for their intended use, a 195 berger in a properly throated 28 Nosler is an absolute Hammer on game and not uncommon to shoot easily in the 2's and is a joy to load for, very forgiving. Its just that a lot of people were hoping they were going to be great for mid sized cartridges for F-Class and at those speed they just didn't have enough advantage over the 180's. It will be the same for these 155 Berger "Hunting" bullets, in cartridges from the 6.5x284, 6.5 SAUM and 264mag, 26 Nosler, these should be a game changer for their intended purpose, "Long range hunting". They weren't designed for the Creedmoor or 6.5x47L. Now if other disciplines, such asF-Class can reep the benefits of this it remains to be seen, if so it will be with cartridges like the 6.5x284, 6.5 SAUM and above. It's just nice to see they are still looking to make advances in their designs and brings more choices.

 

[muleystalker]

I have always wanted to try this myself. Basically make a big scaled up 6.5BR Norma with long neck and really reduce the length.

You would basically have a 7SAUM.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Yes he was shortening the body, it was way to overbore for the 140 grain bullets...

Yeah I don't see the point in continuing to shorten the wsm. At some point I'm sure his case capacity was just the same as the SAUM or less. Seems like a lot of trouble. Though sometimes that's how great new cartridges are discovered. Its ufortunate he did not have that outcome.

You are correct though. As I stated earlier as well, the 300 wsm is a bit overbore in 6.5mm. Not horribly overbore like the 26 Nosler, but still an overbore in 6.5 nonetheless. Overbores are inefficient. They burn a lot of powder to move bullets fast. Thats why I believe the 26 Nosler will soon become nearly obsolete like the 264 Win Mag before it. Sure you may get an extra 100 fps out of a 26 Nosler over other larger 6.5 wildcat cases, but only if you throw a massive pile of powder behind the bullet. Extra powder equals extra muzzle blast, extra barrel heat and wear, and usually extra recoil. If a person doesn't mind that to gain a little speed, then so be it. I move the 140gr Berger VLDs over 3200 fps with 59gr of RL26 in a 26" barrel hunting rifle and it kicks like a 308 win. Very easy on the shoulder and every bit as fast as the 6.5-300 wsm. I still have a bit of throttle left in the case too, but I've never pushed it to find the red line. It moves the 140s plenty fast enough for what I want it to do.

 

[fredo]

This an accuracy site, thus the name Accurate Shooter or 6 BR. Most guys shooting competition are shooting 30 inch or longer barrels especially in heavy gun. Not everybody here is using a lightweight carry gun with a pencil barrel. Alot of guys are using heavy for caliber bullets to reach out there and still have energy. Heck some of the guys I know are using up to 46 inch barrels for hunting. Matt

Yeah, and 'hunting' off a "chain drive table", right?

I'd wager that there are quite a few 'BR comp' shooters who also hunt with sporter weight rifles. Beyond that commonality, those who shoot 'non BR' type competitions like PRS type 'action' matches are growing, day by day. I seriously doubt many shooters or either group are hauling long barrels much more than 26" around. That said, it behooves everyone reading this forum to add a simple tidbit of info to one's muzzle velocity claims:

BARREL LENGTH.

Heck, you could even throw in freebore & powder choice too, if ya wanted to be "accurate" about where/how that MV was achieved...

Doesn't that just make sense, regardless of what & how you're shooting?

 

[Grimstod]

You would basically have a 7SAUM.

I was thinking a lot shorter then a 7SAUM. Maybe push the shoulder back 0.220in

 

[Grimstod]

The million dollar question is what type of twist is going to be necessary to stabilize this bullet. I'm not going to purchase a new barrel; looks like this bullet will require at least a 6.5 twist.

Someone was saying that its fine in a 1:8 however I would call that BS. At least a 1:7 is what I would estimate.

 

[fredo]

If you really look at 195 Bergers they are a game changer, for what they're designed for, a long range hunting bullet for for bigger cartridges. They rock for their intended use, a 195 berger in a properly throated 28 Nosler is an absolute Hammer on game and not uncommon to shoot easily in the 2's and is a joy to load for, very forgiving. Its just that a lot of people were hoping they were going to be great for mid sized cartridges for F-Class and at those speed they just didn't have enough advantage over the 180's.

If the 195 proved to NOT hold an advantage over the 180s, then what "game" did they change? Don't the BR guys choose the best tool for bucking the wind? I haven't run the #s, but I'd bet that a 180 at max. launch speed from a 28Nosler would beat a 195 out of same, to 1K. Different "game", still no "change"...

And who's really shooting critters beyond 1K, anyway? Aside from those in the business of pimpin' Joe Couch Potato a custom "out of the box" LR rifle, idiot proof LRF/ballistic solver, or new "gamechanger" product like a super high BC bullet, that is? Not delving into ethics, but it just seems like some are creating their own market to sell to. Which, in the case of this ultra high BC abloney, don't make any sense to me, given that the product doesn't actually offer a tangible advantage to many in their targeted market? I'm a LR shooter & hunter and remain unconvinced. Just sayin'...

It will be the same for these 155 Berger "Hunting" bullets, in cartridges from the 6.5x284, 6.5 SAUM and 264mag, 26 Nosler, these should be a game changer for their intended purpose, "Long range hunting". They weren't designed for the Creedmoor or 6.5x47L. Now if other disciplines, such asF-Class can reep the benefits of this it remains to be seen, if so it will be with cartridges like the 6.5x284, 6.5 SAUM and above. It's just nice to see they are still looking to make advances in their designs and brings more choices.

To continue applying the same logic, I shot 162/168s out of my (SA) 7WSM, due to OAL & barrel constraints. I tried 180s, but couldn't get enough MV out of them to justify stepping up in BC & bullet weight. A 162 @ 3K from a 24" barrel just whips the pants off a 180 @ barely 2800. Considering that, a 195 would have been a complete 'non-starter'...
Sure, if I built that 7WSM on a long action with gobs of freebore, then it mighta been worth giving the 195 a shot. But then I'd want to see what advantage I'm getting in the field for sucking more recoil up, losing magazine feeding, and losing the potential of lighter bullets shooting well with a mile jump to the lands?

This new 155 is a marketed as a "hunting" bullet, yet its not improving on anything that isn't already available to hunters. Except the increased price tag and felt recoil, that is...

With all the back & forth, can't anyone provide some #s to show some tangible improvement in either drop/drift/or energy on target that us "hunters" can hope to achieve from our "hunting" rifles? OR, do we have to start from scratch, and build a rifle around this new, unproven bullet to even hope to achieve a slight advantage over what's already on the market?

Let's stick with comparing same/same (cartridge & barrel length) real world velocities, and stop using arbitrary values whenever they happen to fit a certain narrative?

Numbers guys, lets see the #s...

 

[284winner]

Someone was saying that its fine in a 1:8 however I would call that BS. At least a 1:7 is what I would estimate.

You know it's kinda like people saying a 9 twist stabilizes the 75 amax in a 223. Personally my 223s with a 9 barrels will not properly stabilize those 75s. Other people shooting them just fine at same velocities. My thought is a 7-7.5 will be the answer. I will try an 8 twist with them as it's all I have. Hoping that someone does some load development with an ideal powder that creates good velocities and accuracy combined to make them work in a little slower barrel. The 7 twist will be what berger most likely will recommend.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

I was thinking a lot shorter then a 7SAUM. Maybe push the shoulder back 0.220in

Not to offend, but What exactly are trying to achieve by building a 6.5 on an overly shortened 7 SAUM case? Something different? Obviously high velocity isn't on the list. There are plenty of chamberings designed for decent velocity and outstanding accuracy. If you want magazine length for heavy bullets, build a 6.5 SAUM on a long action. Frees up case capacity too. I've built my last two 6.5 Rem Mags on long actions throated for the 140 berger bullet base to seat above the shoulder datum line. Plenty of magazine space and case capacity is maximized to push the heavy bullets at high speeds.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

If the 195 proved to NOT hold an advantage over the 180s, then what "game" did they change? Don't the BR guys choose the best tool for bucking the wind? I haven't run the #s, but I'd bet that a 180 at max. launch speed from a 28Nosler would beat a 195 out of same, to 1K. Different "game", still no "change"...

And who's really shooting critters beyond 1K, anyway? Aside from those in the business of pimpin' Joe Couch Potato a custom "out of the box" LR rifle, idiot proof LRF/ballistic solver, or new "gamechanger" product like a super high BC bullet, that is? Not delving into ethics, but it just seems like some are creating their own market to sell to. Which, in the case of this ultra high BC abloney, don't make any sense to me, given that the product doesn't actually offer a tangible advantage to many in their targeted market? I'm a LR shooter & hunter and remain unconvinced. Just sayin'...



To continue applying the same logic, I shot 162/168s out of my (SA) 7WSM, due to OAL & barrel constraints. I tried 180s, but couldn't get enough MV out of them to justify stepping up in BC & bullet weight. A 162 @ 3K from a 24" barrel just whips the pants off a 180 @ barely 2800. Considering that, a 195 would have been a complete 'non-starter'...
Sure, if I built that 7WSM on a long action with gobs of freebore, then it mighta been worth giving the 195 a shot. But then I'd want to see what advantage I'm getting in the field for sucking more recoil up, losing magazine feeding, and losing the potential of lighter bullets shooting well with a mile jump to the lands?

This new 155 is a marketed as a "hunting" bullet, yet its not improving on anything that isn't already available to hunters. Except the increased price tag and felt recoil, that is...

With all the back & forth, can't anyone provide some #s to show some tangible improvement in either drop/drift/or energy on target that us "hunters" can hope to achieve from our "hunting" rifles? OR, do we have to start from scratch, and build a rifle around this new, unproven bullet to even hope to achieve a slight advantage over what's already on the market?

Let's stick with comparing same/same (cartridge & barrel length) real world velocities, and stop using arbitrary values whenever they happen to fit a certain narrative?

Numbers guys, lets see the #s...

Agreed. I shoot the 250gr Berger Elite Hunter (G7 BC .351) out of my 338-375 Ruger at 2952 fps avg speed from a 26" Brux 1 in 10" twist barrel. Now the 300 gr Berger Elite Hunter has a BC that is quite a bit higher (G7 BC .417), but if you calculate my guestimated speeds with the 300gr bullet, let's just say 2800 fps, I would have to be shooting out well beyond 1500 yards before the 300gr EH even began to start showing an inkling of advantage in trajectory. Until then, the 250gr shoots flatter. Granted the 300 gr bullet would deliver a bit more energy at most longer ranges (by a bit I mean maybe 400 ft lbs) but I haven't found an animal in North America that can withstand the power of the Berger 250gr EH and live to tell the tale after it pile drives them in the chest

My point being that my 338-375R is a perfect example where speed trumps BC for trajectory. I calculated all of this before i built the rifle and knew the 250gr EH was obviously the best choice.

Now for 6.5's, I have killed about 25 animals using the 140gr Berger hunting VLDs with excellent results. I don't think an extra 15gr of bullet weight is going to make or break anything, let alone be a game changer. Dead is dead and the 140gr Bergers do it very well.

I understand the heaviest bullets may buck the wind a little better. But while hunting in Montana, if you don't know how to read the wind and make a proper hold, it isn't going to matter what's coming out the end of your barrel.

 

[Milo 2.0]

This bullet will survive, way more of a cult following for the 6.5 saum than most of us know. It'll be the perfect bullet to be shot at 3100fps with slightly more wear than the 140 at 3150.
When the 7mm Saum hit the market, doubt many envisioned it's destiny was shooting 180gr bullets.
There are already some preaching the virtues of the 147 eld x in 6.5x47, cough, cough.

 

[fredo]

Perhaps, Milo.
But, the jury's out on what kinda twist that 155 will require? Mine is a 8.5, so that already a 'non-starter', and I'm certainly not alone there! I doubt even a 1:8 will work @ lower ASLs, that would really screw the pooch with 6.5Creed shooters, since their hindered by launch speed, compared to a SAUM...

And then you've gotta account for the 'average' (.081-.120") freebore of most 6.5 SAUM (4s) chambers, built on standard short actions. The jury's out yet again on what velocity the 155 might achieve, under the same parameters where ~140s has a established track record of kickin' azz?

Keep in mind, the 6.5SAUM's cult following came about because of what it can do from a short action, at mag. length. Do you really think everyone with 8.5-8.7 twist SAUMs are gonna run out and re-barrel to a faster twist, just to be able to single feed a 155 that might not beat a 140 in ballistic performance? That'd make less than zero sense?

This all said, I'm sure happy to be proven wrong. If there's a better mousetrap, I'll shoot it! Just need justification before gulpin' the new & improved, ultra BC flavored Koolaid. I've taste tested it in .224, .243, .284 and .308, and practical performance tends to prove there are better flavors out there...

Looking forward to seeing some real world numbers...

 

[Milo 2.0]

Perhaps, Milo.
But, the jury's out on what kinda twist that 155 will require? Mine is a 8.5, so that already a 'non-starter', and I'm certainly not alone there! I doubt even a 1:8 will work @ lower ASLs, that would really screw the pooch with 6.5Creed shooters, since their hindered by launch speed, compared to a SAUM...

And then you've gotta account for the 'average' (.081-.120") freebore of most 6.5 SAUM (4s) chambers, built on standard short actions. The jury's out yet again on what velocity the 155 might achieve, under the same parameters where ~140s has a established track record of kickin' azz?

Keep in mind, the 6.5SAUM's cult following came about because of what it can do from a short action, at mag. length. Do you really think everyone with 8.5-8.7 twist SAUMs are gonna run out and re-barrel to a faster twist, just to be able to single feed a 155 that might not beat a 140 in ballistic performance? That'd make less than zero sense?

This all said, I'm sure happy to be proven wrong. If there's a better mousetrap, I'll shoot it! Just need justification before gulpin' the new & improved, ultra BC flavored Koolaid. I've taste tested it in .224, .243, .284 and .308, and practical performance tends to prove there are better flavors out there...

Looking forward to seeing some real world numbers...

Everything you said makes total sense, my post was more or less saying let time tell also. Most who don't embrace the 195 don't shoot a 28 Nosler either, a lot of expense to do so.
Most of the guys around me shooting 6.5 saums use long actions anyway, they were either bitten by 7 saums in SA, or aware of feeding issues with longer seated bullets, or converted their 7's to 6.5, 6.5 saum was around long before gap got ahold of it.

 

[Bkluke]

Nosler has been known to inflate BC. Also I know nobody in 600 or 1000 yard BR or F-class shooting them. Not accurate enough. Matt

Noslers RDF's are one nice looking bullet. I shot them with Varget at 1000 in my Dasher, had a 6 shot group in the 4" range. They did shoot better than my prior load with RL 16 and Berger VLD's. Haven't tested anything since though.

 

[muleystalker]

If the 195 proved to NOT hold an advantage over the 180s, then what "game" did they change? Don't the BR guys choose the best tool for bucking the wind? I haven't run the #s, but I'd bet that a 180 at max. launch speed from a 28Nosler would beat a 195 out of same, to 1K. Different "game", still no "change"...

And who's really shooting critters beyond 1K, anyway? Aside from those in the business of pimpin' Joe Couch Potato a custom "out of the box" LR rifle, idiot proof LRF/ballistic solver, or new "gamechanger" product like a super high BC bullet, that is? Not delving into ethics, but it just seems like some are creating their own market to sell to. Which, in the case of this ultra high BC abloney, don't make any sense to me, given that the product doesn't actually offer a tangible advantage to many in their targeted market? I'm a LR shooter & hunter and remain unconvinced. Just sayin'...



To continue applying the same logic, I shot 162/168s out of my (SA) 7WSM, due to OAL & barrel constraints. I tried 180s, but couldn't get enough MV out of them to justify stepping up in BC & bullet weight. A 162 @ 3K from a 24" barrel just whips the pants off a 180 @ barely 2800. Considering that, a 195 would have been a complete 'non-starter'...
Sure, if I built that 7WSM on a long action with gobs of freebore, then it mighta been worth giving the 195 a shot. But then I'd want to see what advantage I'm getting in the field for sucking more recoil up, losing magazine feeding, and losing the potential of lighter bullets shooting well with a mile jump to the lands?

This new 155 is a marketed as a "hunting" bullet, yet its not improving on anything that isn't already available to hunters. Except the increased price tag and felt recoil, that is...

With all the back & forth, can't anyone provide some #s to show some tangible improvement in either drop/drift/or energy on target that us "hunters" can hope to achieve from our "hunting" rifles? OR, do we have to start from scratch, and build a rifle around this new, unproven bullet to even hope to achieve a slight advantage over what's already on the market?

Let's stick with comparing same/same (cartridge & barrel length) real world velocities, and stop using arbitrary values whenever they happen to fit a certain narrative?

Numbers guys, lets see the #s...

Hey Fredo, its been a while hope all is well, what I was saying is the 195's didn't show an advantage to the F-Class crowd over the 180 in a mid sized cartridge, say the .284. But what I was saying is the 195 wasn't designed for mid sized round as a target bullet, it was designed as a hunting bullet for larger capacity magnums at which it does excel over a 180. For its intended purpose it beats out the 180's in both drop, wind drift and more down range energy. It was intended for Long range hunting, And weather someone agree's that LRH is ethical or not its here to stay. Lots of archery hunters think hunting with any kind of fire arm is not sporting, or fly fisherman don't think fishing with bait is sporting, that doesn't make it true. I have run the numbers on a lot of magnums cartridges especially the 28 nosler and in most the 195 does beat out the 180's, but it has to be a cartridge with a sufficient powder charge to push it. Thats why the the BR guys as you stated, are not using it, they are not using a big enough cartridge to take advantage of it, it doesn't fit into there need and wasn't designed for it. The 195's paired with the 28 Nosler is a hammer for hunting, its a joy to shoot and even nicer to load for, its such a balanced combination its simple to find a load for and its very common to see them easily shooting in the 2's and 3's with out much load development.
My rifle was finished 10 days before my hunt last year, did load development and shot it bit before my hunt. I took my Cow talk at 770 and my bull at 986 yards. It's true that Long range hunting isn't for everyone.
I agree in your instance with short action cartridges with mag restraints the 155 is nothing to get exited about, but for a gun that has the room and is throated for it I foresee it having an advantage in wind drift and down range energy in cartridges it was designed for. The 150 and 160 Matrix are great hunting bullets, its just nice that Berger is giving another choice. The numbers will come, they are still just being tested.

Good shooting to you Fredo

 

[B23]

B23 Sir, - How about you tell us what your experiences are with long barrels or your designs of chambers & throat/leade including how you calculated what the out come would be ?? - And in what calibers ?
- I'm not here to "troll you" but you have made it obvious to some of us that you don't know much about ELR, Long Range Hunting or 1000 yd. competition and what goes into the rifles that are used in these endeavors. And that is understandable as one has to have the "want to" to so be engaged, but that's not a reason to question or to chastize those who do. - Nuf Said - Ron

If some of you choose to follow and not question things, feel free, but I read things like "I know guys were shooting over 3200 with the 7WSM and a 180 VLD" I'll raise the BS flag everytime. Then, once I did question it didn't any, besides me, find it odd how the story evolved from, guys that were getting over 3200 from their 7 WSM w/180's to, "He used a 1.450 heavy barrel and a duplex load of powder, lots of freebore. It didn't shoot that great but was fast." We went from I know guys getting 3200 w/180's in WSM's, like it's a real common thing, to ONE GUY who got 3200fps from his 7 WSM, BUT, it didn't shoot very well. Then we moved from that to long barrels and I guess for some, 36-46 inch barrels on hunting rifles is common. Clearly, you know much more than I do because I was not aware 36-46 inch barreled hunting rifles was such a common practice.

As for my background, I'm just some peckerwood who lives in the hills with too many guns.

 

[284winner]

Well moving on. My curiosity is piqued with the 155 but like Fredo says not suuuper excited about it for my 6.5-284. I do own a 264 win mag but in the sporter barreled model and so so accuracy. I'd have to see other 264 mags shoot this bullet before running out to rebarrel it. Yes I think it would do well but how much better than the 6.5-284, who knows. Just another bullet on the horizon.