Need some feed back form long time reloaders

[williepete]

Background
I have only been reloading for a little over two years with over 2k rounds loaded
so I don't have the experience of the guys that have been reloading much longer than I have
Thats why I would like some feedback from the long timers
What I shoot
I shoot short range bench rest service rifle (gas gun)100 to 200 yards
The barrel that I have on the rifle now is a FN 14.5 inch with a 1/7 twist
with 610 rounds through it
My brass is Lapua Rem 223 match
I check my sized brass with a sheridan and wilson case gauge
Out of a new box of 100 I have only used 50 that I have reloaded 11 times I don't shoot really hot loads
AVG Mv is 2700 fps now with all of that out of the way this is my concern.
After about the seventh or eighth reload I started to notice the resized brass would not go into the
sheridan case gauge although they would go into the wilson, no biggie I know the wilson only measures shoulder bump
and the sheridan measures the complete case, shoulder bump and body diameter.
And I also under stand that the sheridan is cut to sammi min specs so if it fits in the sheridan it will chamber in anything.
My thoughts are the nato chamber is sloppy for reliability so I figure my brass is fully fire formed to that nato chamber
and that is why it won't fit in the sheridan gauge After they are full leinght sized I can drop a case in my chamber turn the rifle
barrel up and the case will fall right out I have never had a extraction problem with this brass
So I thought I would get a small bass resizing die and try that to see if I could bring the brass back to sammi
Well I tride a few cases today in the small base die and what I noticed is that it pushed the brass back to the rin and left a grove
that you can feel with your finger nail and they deffently won't go all the way into the sheridan gauge so
for safty sake would you keeping working with the brass or just retire it and move on to the next 50 new cases out of the box
On a side note out of the 11 times of reloading the brass I have never had to trim it one time which I thought was odd
any thoughts is appreciated .

 

[K22]

If the cases chamber and extract in the rifle without issue, then there should be no need to use a small base die just so it will fit some gauge.

Once the case is fireformed to your chamber, that becomes the baseline case head space upon which you make sizing die adjustments using a bump gauge and caliper to set the resized case head space. Generally, a bump of .003 is used for semi-auto rifles. I don't shoot semiautos, so I'll defer to those who do on the amount shoulder set back.

It's difficult to advise you on the disposition of the cases sized with the small base die without seeing them. But based on what you posted; I personally would not use them since they seem distorted if I interpreted your post correctly. Alway err on the side of safety.

Regarding trimming, if they don't need trimmed, they don't need trimmed. I use a Sinclair chamber length gauge to measure the length of my rifle chamber. Most chambers are cut well in excess of SAMMI specs thus negating the need to trim as often as reloading manuals specify. So, you might want to consider purchasing such a gauge to measure the rifle chamber to give you an idea of its length. I assume they can be used with gas guns, but I would check with them or others on this site that shoot gas guns. The last time I checked, they are under $15.

 

[williepete]

If the cases chamber and extract in the rifle without issue, then there should be no need to use a small base die just so it will fit some gauge.

Once the case is fireformed to your chamber, that becomes the baseline case head space upon which you make sizing die adjustments using a bump gauge and caliper to set the resized case head space. Generally, a bump of .003 is used for semi-auto rifles. I don't shoot semiautos, so I'll defer to those who do on the amount shoulder set back.

It's difficult to advise you on the disposition of the cases sized with the small base die without seeing them. But based on what you posted; I personally would not use them since they seem distorted if I interpreted your post correctly. Alway err on the side of safety.

Regarding trimming, if they don't need trimmed, they don't need trimmed. I use a Sinclair chamber length gauge to measure the length of my rifle chamber. Most chambers are cut well in excess of SAMMI specs thus negating the need to trim as often as reloading manuals specify. So, you might want to consider purchasing such a gauge to measure the rifle chamber to give you an idea of its length. I assume they can be used with gas guns, but I would check with them or others on this site that shoot gas guns. The last time I checked, they are under $15.

I thank you so much for your reply
What you have said is what I was thinking about sizing to fit some gauge i agree
I have the Sinclair chamber length gauge and I have all kinds of room in the chamber
My manual says to trim cases to 1.750 but they never get that long
as far as bump I set back to around 3.5 k bump and the rifle runs great
as far as the 3 cases that I ran through the sb sizing die I will trash them
my main concern was the swelling at the base of the cases and was concerned about case head separation but after 11 firings I am not seeing any sings of that
I guess I just bought into the you got to have a sb sizing die for simi auto's so I thought i would give it a try turns out to be a waste of money
my regular method is to full length size and bump with a Redding body die and use a lee collet neck die to set neck tension and that has turned out some great ammo I will just stick with that
Thank you again

 

[Bill Norris]

I would fire a few of the newer cases a couple of times and then compare it to the cases fired 11 times. If you see a noticeable difference then go with the newer and call it done with the older 11 times fired.

 

[K22]

On trimming: SAMMI specs specify a max case length for the 223 Rem as 1.760 and trim length of 1.750. I've never measured a chamber of a 223 Rem that wasn't greater than 1.760 and I've owned over 10 - 223 Rem bolt rifles of various manufacture. Using the Sinclair gauge and applying their specified safety factor, you should get a max case length for your rifle which in turn will probably reduce the amount of trimming needed.

What causes case head separation is excessive head space causing the case to stretch. Repeated sizing pushing the shoulder back too much then firing causes fatigue in body of the case forward the solid head of the case. By sizing only the amount needed to permit proper chambering, you can minimize case stretch. But you should always inspect cases before each sizing for incipient head separation. Semi-autos tend to stretch more than bolt rifles so be aware of that.

Using a bump gauge to measure the precise amount of case head space with a caliper is the best way in my experience to control sizing to prevent over sizing.

By using a small base die, you actually increased the "slop" of the case in the rifle chamber. In some rifle chambers especially semiautos, a small base die is needed to permit adequate chambering. But it should be used only when necessary.

If your rifle is shooting to the accuracy standards you need, don't fix it.

 

[3Sigma]

This Might be out in left field, but do you anneal the cases?

Repeated cold working makes the brass stiffer, and a given amount of displacement from your die yields a smaller change in the final case. IE, the brass springs back more the stronger it becomes.

 

[williepete]

I would fire a few of the newer cases a couple of times and then compare it to the cases fired 11 times. If you see a noticeable difference then go with the newer and call it done with the older 11 times fired.

Here is where it gets tricky
but on the up side could be a learning experence for me
I am a old retired tired man with lots of time on my hands
so all I do every day is shoot clean guns and reload and shoot again
my wife loves it because I am so busy with my gun stuff I don't bother her
back to the subject.
ones fired resized brass specs out at 0.3740 at the base
11 fired resized brass specs out at 0.3760 at the base
that is a .002 difference that's a lot but
the 11 fired brass tighter fitting is more accurate
downside is after about 50 rounds the chambering gets a little gritty if you ride the charging handle down
but during a match you only fire 5 shots at a time so that makes that a moot point
that's why the 11 firings the more I shoot this brass the better it gets

 

[williepete]

This Might be out in left field, but do you anneal the cases?

Repeated cold working makes the brass stiffer, and a given amount of displacement from your die yields a smaller change in the final case. IE, the brass springs back more the stronger it becomes.

I anneal after every firing

 

[Bill Norris]

Here is where it gets tricky
but on the up side could be a learning experence for me
I am a old retired tired man with lots of time on my hands
so all I do every day is shoot clean guns and reload and shoot again
my wife loves it because I am so busy with my gun stuff I don't bother her
back to the subject.
ones fired resized brass specs out at 0.3740 at the base
11 fired resized brass specs out at 0.3760 at the base
that is a .002 difference that's a lot but
the 11 fired brass tighter fitting is more accurate
downside is after about 50 rounds the chambering gets a little gritty if you ride the charging handle down
but during a match you only fire 5 shots at a time so that makes that a moot point
that's why the 11 firings the more I shoot this brass the better it gets

Totally understand that.

 

[williepete]

I would never expect to get 11 loadings in an ar-15 but id never use lapua brass in one either. If the primer pockets are tight, you dont see incipient rings and they arent beat up to bad id keep using them. I would get a bump gauge to monitor that and set your shoulder setback. i wouldnt even use a case gage for accuracy loads let alone worry about the brass fitting in one or not. id fit the loads to the gun. no need for a small base die when sized brass allready falls out of the chamber.

I use a short action customs comparator and check my bump every time
the primer pockets are starting to loosen up but they pass the primer pocket pin gauge test so I keep using them

 

[Benchrest Braxton]

picture of the groove the small base die left?

 

[williepete]

picture of the groove the small base die left?

hang tight I'll get that for ya

 

[williepete]

hang tight I'll get that for ya

 

[Benchrest Braxton]

View attachment 1398656

wow that is rather impressive.

Just out of curiosity, how do you really check brass fitment on an AR platform?

on bolt guns we remove our firing pin assemblies and ejector to see how the bolt feels upon close.

only thing i could think of would be to have a gauge cut from your AR reamer?

 

[williepete]

wow that is rather impressive.

Just out of curiosity, how do you really check brass fitment on an AR platform?

on bolt guns we remove our firing pin assemblies and ejector to see how the bolt feels upon close.

only thing i could think of would be to have a gauge cut from your AR reamer?

I love bolt guns and I have learned so much from the bolt gun guys and I was able to transfer that
knowledge over to ar's
when I started having this issue with the fat base I thought how do the bolt guys do it
so I did it the same way I remove the firing pin ejector and extractor then I made a little tool to go on to the ar bolt and use the tool the same way you do your bolt to check for clearance if the bolt closes easy I'm there that clarified up a lot of things for me

 

[jepp2]

Just out of curiosity, how do you really check brass fitment on an AR platform?

The way I do it:

With the upper swung open,I hook the rim of the case under the extractor and start the mouth of the case into the chamber. I put the tip of my index finger on the back of the BCG and if I can close it to full lockup (watch the lugs for rotation), then I know my brass has no bolt contact.

if you ride the charging handle down

Why are you riding the charging handle down?

I have loaded for almost 30 different 223/20 Practical rifles. About half are AR's. I have only found the need to use a small base die on 2 rifles and both are bolt actions. All the rest I just use the standard die. I ran a case life test on AR's, got as many as 37 loadings before I retired the cases, and none of the 20 cases in the test showed any signs of incipient case head separations.

 

[6MMsteve]

the AR chamber is large for the reason of being reliable, on standard ar's, looks like your small base die peeled some brass and shoved it to the base, just use a regular die and fire away

 

[williepete]

The way I do it:

With the upper swung open,I hook the rim of the case under the extractor and start the mouth of the case into the chamber. I put the tip of my index finger on the back of the BCG and if I can close it to full lockup (watch the lugs for rotation), then I know my brass has no bolt contact.


Why are you riding the charging handle down?

I have loaded for almost 30 different 223/20 Practical rifles. About half are AR's. I have only found the need to use a small base die on 2 rifles and both are bolt actions. All the rest I just use the standard die. I ran a case life test on AR's, got as many as 37 loadings before I retired the cases, and none of the 20 cases in the test showed any signs of incipient case head separations.

I don't always ride the handle down but what I do do is I load 5 rounds into the mag then I shoot 5 round groups at a target and then reload the mag and shoot another 5 rounds at a different target and keep doing that and when my groups start to open up usually around 40 rounds I know things are getting dirty and I verify that by then riding the charging handle down and see how it feels after 40 rounds it starts to feel gritty and my testing is over go home and clean the rifle and go back and do it all over again that is just my process any way works for me

 

[williepete]

the AR chamber is large for the reason of being reliable, on standard ar's, looks like your small base die peeled some brass and shoved it to the base, just use a regular die and fire away

I know that I'm walking a fine line between reliability and accuracy my brass is fire forming to the larger nato chamber making it tighter but more accurate like the bolt gun guys do besides my hand loads are only for my benchrest ar in my defense ar I just use factory military 556 in it for reliability green tip just in case

 

[nettle]

View attachment 1398656

I have a 308 M1A with a tight chamber and have to resize on a small base die after each firing or the case's won't chamber. The brass sized with my small base die looks no different that the brass sized on a standard FL die. Certainly the the sized brass doesn't have a ring. What brand small base die are you using?