neck, turning & tension

[tootalloutdoors]

I finally got all my ducks in a row to start reloading my 22BR. It has a .250" neck, and I'm using Lapua brass, with a Redding sizing die and a Forster ultra seater.
Unfortunately they only sent me one of the three bushings that I ordered,,.247").. After being disapointed I got to thinking that I would be able to control the neck tension with my turning.,it's an outside turner)...
This is my first attempt at turning, but it seems I can do it that way. Am I right or wrong? As soon as I post this I'm gonna start experimenting. I'm turning the 6mm, and then sizing to .224".

Is there anything I need to "watch" for???
Thanks tootalloutdoors

 

[StephenPerry]

Tootall
You sound too savvy about this to have never neck turned brass. But I'll bite on this one. First I have never neck turned a 6 mm neck and then sized it down to 22. Might work but that is not the prescribed way I do things. I have a .250 neck in one of my .222 barrels so I have some experience with what your doing. My feeling if you turn a 6mm neck which I'm assuming you are using 6 BR brass you will get some springing back when sized down to a 22 neck. Also the sizing down could create some high and low spots on the neck which could create uneven tension while seating bullets. Like to know what make of turner you are using and what the neck measured with bullet loaded in your new 22 neck. What you need to be careful with is how the neck fits your chamber neck. For a .250x, remember a .250 chamber neck has another number where I placed the x. In reality it could be a .2504 or it could be a .2498 most don't consider such when they are setting up for a tight necked turn. Need a 1/10 micrometer for setting tight necks. I hate to assume anything with your scenario.
Ok you have some turned brass because you said you would. After you size down the necks to 22 size which you need to do in at least in a neck sizing die not with your .247 bushing you are going to get an over size neck. Measure the outside diameter and subtract off .224 now you have a bastard neck that better measure less than .250x more like .247 or you need to cut again if you have turned brass that is say .245 you have gone too small for your bushing it is a hit or miss game in setting up most turners, do a couple first if you are measuring high set your turner to cut so you measure less than .248 with your sized down necks. You might go down to .247 so when you seat your bullets you are measuring .248 at the pressure ring. The case neck will expand on firing to kiss the chamber neck then retract back to say a .248 measurement then you can get a decent one bushing only seat on your next loaded round.
You really have me over a barrel here as I don't do my neck turning this way. All I can say is measure measure measure. I don't care how you get to the .248 seated bullet neck I recommend for a .250x chamber neck 22 BR but measure before you put the hammer down on your experiment. I'm not even going to give you a starting load for this, I never give out loads anyway. Welcome to the world of fitted necks hope you don't strain your eyes looking for your number.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

 

[tootalloutdoors]

O.K. Well, "I got it". After playing with the turner I thought "man, this is no big deal".. It's easy to do and they come out looking nice. That was in the process of just learning how to operate the turner.
Since then I've been turning a piece, sizing the neck, and seating a bullet. "WOW". Way off!!! Adjust turner, turn a piece, size the neck, and "crap".. Don't need to seat the bullet because it falls right thru the neck. That's when I started using old brass to work on.

Stephan, the reason I'm going this route is because I am completely new at this turning thing. When I ordered my parts I ordered a .224 pilot. My very first attempt was to size the 6mmbr neck to a .247, then put it on the turner and turn it down. Well, As you already know and I know now, my .247 bushing made my inside diameter much too small, and all the turning would have to come off the inside. I have no way to do that. I now had to go "trial by error" of goin thru the process of turning on a make shift 6mm pilot, sizing, seating, and measuring.
You're right, what a drag. But now my turner is set and I can do this and shoot my 22BR while I order other little things to make this easier. I "am" sizing in a bushing full length sizer. Where is the problem in this? "Really," I don't know...
The second question that has come up in all this is "why in the heck are there all these different neck sizes? Either a no-turn, or a tight neck. If the tight neck, then why aren't all of "those" the same size??? This may be a really basic question but when I've been screwing with all this trial and error stuff, it has come up numerous times. Why don't these calibers have a no-turn neck that is this size, and a tight turn neck that was reamed this size?? PERIOD??? If I'm turnig for a .250 neck and you're turning for a .xxx" neck, is one better than the other?? "Really, again that's a very real question for me right now. As for a starting load. I'm startng with benchmark at around 27.5 and going up. Just because "Mr. Sierra" has their accuracy load at 29.6. I'm using Sierra 53gr bullets.

All kidding aside. What are the answers to the questions I've posted here??

Thanks tootalloutdoors

 

[mikecr]

It's frustrating at first, but take a deep breath and focus on your goals here. Afterall, your 22br isn't an off the shelf cartridge for a SAAMI chamber.
You control the 'standards'. They can be whatever you want. This is good.

It's not new ground. But once you work through it, you'll have new insights in reloading that many don't have. You're really learning alot here. This is good.



You're forming a cartridge and this is best done in gentle steps. A 247 bushing is too much downsizing in one step. By now you've seen how much the brass thickens on downsizing, and you've probably noticed that such a large single-change in neck diameter produces bad results. The great sizing angle imparted by the bushing causes oversizing.

You can improvise. But since you're ordering some little things, consider this; Rather than perfecting a mess, why not get the right tools to begin with?

Anneal, size down the 24cal necks to 22cal. Expand to fit your 22cal mandrel correctly, and turn.

In sizing down, try not to exceed ~10thou change in any one step.
For necks starting @ 13thou thickness, x2, + .243, thats ~.269"
At 22cal,before turning) it'll likely size out to 14.5thou thick, x2, +224, thats .253". Assuming pre-expansion oversize of 2thou for your mandrel fit, thats .251".
269-251=18thou down sizing needed before expanding & turning. You might try 260 & 251 bushings for your downsizing to 22cal.
After turning, your 248 bushing will work as planned.
I'd say done deal, but it's never that simple. There are always other challenges to work out.
But it's all good in the end!

 

[tootalloutdoors]

O.K. Mike. I think I'm pretty "slow" here. I'm probably not getting this as I should...

1. Size my 24 caliber Lapua brass to 22 caliber in two stages. Using a .260 an a .251 bushing.

2. Expand with a 22 caliber expanding mandel.,never used one. Do I shove it in by hand or does it fit on my trimer? I'm using a Forster crank type trimer/turner)...

3. Turn the cases...

4. Final size with a .248"...


I'm trying to figure what the final out come difference would be over what I'm doing now. I think I've found the correct turning thickness to give me about .002" tension and still end up with a loaded neck size of .248"...

I'm fearing what you are getting at is that my sizing in one big squeeze is going to give me less than "consisent" neck thickness, which will make everything vary....

tootalloutdoors

 

[Forum Boss]

The expander mandrel screws into a die body that holds the mandrel. Both K&M and Sinclair offer the mandrel holder dies. You put the case in a normal shellholder and then run the case up into the mandrel-holder die using your normal press.

Annealing IS a good idea when re-forming cases. However, a lot of guys would be better off leaving the brass alone if they don't have good annealing skills and very careful control over temperatures. It is easy to ruin brass when annealing. It is also possible to spend a lot of time heating the brass in a way that has no positive effect.

 

[StephenPerry]

Tootall
Write me an e-mail at stevmari@adelphia.net and I will give you 30 years experience with neck turning for free, just like it was given to me.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

 

[tootalloutdoors]

E-mail sent Stephan. Whip it on me... I went out and shot last night and I have to say I was very happy with some groups.
After sighting in my scope I moved to 100yds. My second load with Benchmark gave me a .263" 4-shot group. This was shots 11, 12, 13, & 14 from a brand new Douglas barrel on a Savage action, while fire forming. I tried some AA-2015 and got one 4-shot group of .203" with one load.
These were probably just flukes but it gives me an idea of the potential. I really didn't think it would shoot with my 6BR. I'm actually "very" happy with it. Apparently my case prep could use some fine tuning. But I thought it was pretty cool for just picking a few loads off the net, picking a seating depth, and shooting.

tootalloutdoors