Neck tension without neck turning?

[Rich S]

Thanks again for the information. I did some research from the information above

I’m fine if I have to replace the RCBS resizing die.

Should I get, for example:

1. Redding type-S bushing
2. 21st century mandrels?

Then do the following with brass?

1. Resize with the Redding bushing dies
2. Trim the brass to size, deburr the mouth
3. Use 21st century mandrels

Thoughts on the above?

Also, when using the mandrels, how do I know which size to use? 6.5 creedmoor. I use Hornady brass with Hornady ELD-M 140s

I Really appreciate the help

The attached picture is some options for expanders. I use the Porter Precision on the left. It uses ER16 collets commonly used in machining and readily available to hold the mandrel. The mandrels are Pin gages also readily available. MSC is one place that sells them. For $4 each you can get pin gages in 0.0005 increments. Just chuck them in a drill and tapper them on a bench grinder. The gage pins are hardened and hold up well. The one on the right is a collet type bullet puller. I have not used it for this but others have posted getting good results with it. I like to use a bushing or FL die that sizes the neck ~0.002 under the desired size. Then use a mandrel to expand back up. This results in fairly consistent neck tension. I anneal each time and typically a mandrel ~0.0005 under the bullet diameter gives me ~0.0015 neck tension. If using the pin gages I'd recommend starting with 4 pins starting at bullet diameter and going down in 0.0005 increments. Coat the inside of the necks with graphite and leave the mandrel die loose in the press so it can float/self align.

 

[divingin]

You may want to consider using a mandrel in conjunction with your existing die.You can use them with a collet type bullet pulling die. It makes for a economical way to play with neck tension.

That's clever. Never thought of that. Thanks!

 

[cw308]

I've been reloading for 25+ years , tried Redding S Type bushing dies , went back to the Standard RCBS full length sizing die combined with the Redding Competition shellholders . I size my cases with .002 case headspace and nect tension will vary depending what brass I'm using . Federal , HSM and ADI are thicker then most , using the expander ball always , lubing the inside slightly with a Q tip or theredding dry lube . My run-out is .001 and my groups are average .5 at 200 yards 3 10 shot groups with a Reminder.700 308 only set up for bench shooting with a Jewell trigger set at 10 ounces . No harm in trying different dies . I went back to my old reliable RCBS Full Size sizing die . Hope I Helped .

Chris

 

[D-4297]

Turning necks in F-TR is about as current as using a collet die to Neck only . Most of the prominent TR shooters I've spoken with stopped turning necks , after doing a practical study on it for over a year . Didn't see any benefit on the target , so there was no benefit in wasting the time turning . Keep in mind Boys & Girls ; most TR rifles have "No Turn" chambers , unlike a lot of BR rifles . I use a Redding type "S" , with the expander removed , and a Bushing to get me to .307 ...Less is sometimes a whole lot more . With a whole lot less time and effort . Still trying to decide whether to go down to .306 and expand back up . I do anneal after every firing , trim only when needed , and deburr inside and out before using the die . Currently in the mid 190's , but I think that's more the loose nut behind the trigger , than the reloading practices .

 

[tsyarnall]

Hmmmm.....

Sorry folks. Somehow I loaded the wrong video.

 

[DumpHollow]

I started shooting F-Class in F-Open with a 6.5 Creedmoor. That was early in the life of the 6.5 CM when Hornady brass was the only option unless you made 6.5CM from something else. After that first season, I abandoned the 6.5CM and F-Open and had a 308 F-TR rifle built. The 308 is loaded with Lapua brass. I give Hornady a lot of credit for the high quality factory ammo that they offer, but I will never have another match rifle caliber where Lapua brass is not available. I still have a 6.5CM but it is not a match rifle and I am trying Peterson brass in it. I have also heard that Alpha is very good but do not have any experience with their brass. My best recommendation is to do yourself a favor and get some Lapua brass.

Redding offers a floating expander ball that I have installed in several different calibers. I do not have proof that it makes a difference on runout but it is something else to try. Another trick for the expander stem to mitigate runout is to place a small O-ring under the decapping stem lock ring to allow it float. There are a lot of ways to skin a cat. You just have to try different methods and measure the runout.

I recently went through the decision process on chambers for two different calibers. In addition to lead/throat dimensions the neck diameter is a variable that requires some attention. After doing a lot of research on this site, and talking through the topic with some smart shooters, I have come to the conclusion that having adequate loaded round neck clearance for good bullet release is more important than brass life due to minimal cold working of the neck. But the chamber and your loaded round need to be matched. Opinions vary and the pure short range BR clan has their own protocols, but for your purposes a minimum of 0.004" clearance is not a bad thing. I neck turned my Lapua 308 brass where my loaded round is 0.336" in a 0.341" chamber. I do not use an expander in that rifle and only outside neck size with a Whidden button die with shoulder bump.

Welcome to the madness. You are about to jump down the rabbit hole. Lots of techniques to try.

 

[tsyarnall]

Ok, so inside and outside neck turning or outside neck turning only? Either way, if it’s automated, it’s going to cost a lot of money. But, what will get the job done and done right?

Scott

 

[DumpHollow]

Ok, so inside and outside neck turning or outside neck turning only? Either way, if it’s automated, it’s going to cost a lot of money. But, what will get the job done and done right?

Scott

The necks that I have turned were outside only. With that being said, my decision on the two most recent chambers are No-turn necks. I'm setting up for bushing dies with and without expanders, either integral to the die or separate as Ned suggests.

 

[D-4297]

If ya run into any rabbits when you get to the bottom of this hole , send them scurrying . Try different things till you find a process that works for you , and the equipment you're using . There really is no "Right Way" , or "Wrong Way" . Just the "Safe Way" , that works . You're in the right place , with a lot of good people who are happy to offer good advice .

 

[tsyarnall]

Bet that!

 

[flintcreek6412]

There is more than one way to skin a cat so my only qualifier is that this is what works for me. Some of it may not matter but as long as I think it matters.....then it matters. Yes, this is partly a mental game.

I shoot F-T/R and I do still neck turn. Luckily I can get 15-20 loads out of Lapua Palma brass so I only turn every other year and I'm due unfortunately. I absolutely hate neck turning more than any other part of reloading. Even a colonoscopy is a good 15 minute nap which I'll take over neck turning.

I anneal with my AMP every firing so I've found very consistent spring back and it's pretty minimal.

I turn all my brass to .015" Some lots are shinny with every part of neck removed and some only have about 80% removed. I now buy 500 pieces at a time all same lot. It's the different lots when I started where I saw the variations

I start with a Forster Full Length Sizing Die with it honed to the exact spec I want my neck OD sized. I did find that they honed it allowing for spring back more than I get so I sent it back to get a little more removed. Verify with them when ordering. I have used many neck bushings before and I'm just not a fan. Again, that's just me and my preference. Bushing dies works great for most guys. I just don't like how they don't size to the shoulder....I know. Probably doesn't matter.

I then have a series of 21st century expanders since some lots of bullets measure .308 and other .3075. Of course now I also buy those 1000-2000 at a time with same lot. Yes, many lessons learned.

I dry lube inside necks with q tip and then expand to desired neck tension. If using .308 measured bullets I use the .3065 mandrel which gives me about.002 neck tension with slight spring back. But I have tested different neck tensions but I've never seen a huge difference.

IMO consistency is key. Whatever you do, do it the same every time. More often than that you can make it work even if it doesn't follow conventional advice. I know by neck turning my necks are not a variable so I can move on if a load is acting weird and check something else.

Good luck.

 

[tsyarnall]

Thanks flintcreek6412. Very informative. Have you ever noticed the need to do the process of neck turning again, due to brass flow, or do the necks pretty much stay consistent once turned from then on?

Scott

 

[flintcreek6412]

Thanks flintcreek6412. Very informative. Have you ever noticed the need to do the process of neck turning again, due to brass flow, or do the necks pretty much stay consistent once turned from then on?

Scott

I have not. I just trim as needed

I also have my chamber set at zero headspace so my brass never gets worked very much. Not sure if that matters or not. But I like that I can turn virgin brass and then size it and use in competition with no need to fireform. No one likes wasting components these days

 

[tsyarnall]

I hear that and thank you.

Scott

 

[Artisan]

Another option that works very well in the 6.5 creedmoor is using a redding body die to bump the shoulder and size the body and a lee neck sizing collet die to size the neck..

LEE also makes and sells "undersized" mandrels for their collet dies. I bought extra mandrels of standard size and polish them down, until they measure the diameter I'm seeking. I use Ballistic gauges on all my resized cases, they tell me the inside diameter of each case and I can then adjust my tension accordingly, by using a different diameter mandrel.

 

[CA_Shooter]

Update:

I finally was able to use an expander mandrel and load some bullets with a 21st century arbor press.


For 6.5 creedmoor:

My Hornady brass neck thickness is about .013. I don't turn the necks

Using the .2635 mandrel

Loading was about 70-85 PSI with the 21st century arbor press.

Taking into account neck spring back do I need to try out .2640 mandrels to reduce the PSI?

 

[Dusty Stevens]

I would. I like 20-30psi

 

[WEL]

Another option as mentioned above is to get a forster full length die and have it honed to minimally work your brass. You can make some very concentric ammo. The 6.5 guys did some testing and found they preferred it over bushing dies. Unless you are using good brass with uniform wall thickness bushing dies can push the inconsistencies in brass thickness to the inside if not using an expander ball or mandrel as the final step.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Another option as mentioned above is to get a forster full length die and have it honed to minimally work your brass. You can make some very concentric ammo. The 6.5 guys did some testing and found they preferred it over bushing dies. Unless you are using good brass with uniform wall thickness bushing dies can push the inconsistencies in brass thickness to the inside if not using an expander ball or mandrel as the final step.

What happens when you need to adjust your neck tension? Im sure a honed forster is fine for the 6.5 guys

 

[WEL]

What happens when you need to adjust your neck tension? Im sure a honed forster is fine for the 6.5 guys

It’s a valid point. I measured some run of the mil Hornady and rcds dies I have in various calibers a while back. The difference in loaded round versus sized brass was 1.5 to 2 thou which ironically is where most people from what I’ve seen tend to wind up. With .002 being most common. The biggest complaint with standard fl dies is they overwork the brass. The honed Forster eliminates this. Depending on your discipline of shooting this may or may not be good enough. Since the op is not wanting to turn necks I’m guessing it may very well be good enough.