Neck turning question

[butchlambert]

As mentioned by Al and others, fireform with Bullseye and no bullet. It doesn't matter if it has a tight neck or not. You will find even if you fireform in a tight neck chamber without a bullet, it will chamber and leave very little to expand. I believe Jackie Schmidt still fireforms his 6ppc with 22 cal bullets in a fireform barrel and 6mm bullets in his 30BR. He expands very little and then turns the neck.
Fireforming with Bullseye and a wax plug allows the necks to be a few thousandths longer instead of the cases shortening.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Please understand my position...... THE 21st CENTURY TOOLING IS WONDERFUL, AND I RECOMMEND IT WHOLEHEARTEDLY...... I'm just stating that new brass is very crooked, SO crooked that I. myself, NEVER do any turning without at least ironing out the necks and most often I actually blow stuff out to fit and square it all up.

Also, what your hands do is compensate "in and out" as well as for axial misalignment...... this can produce better looking shoulders because the cutter rides the existing shoulder even if it's somewhat wobbly.

I know exactly how it works in my hands. Been doing it for many years on thousands of cases. Everything is verified on neck wall concentricity and runout gauges. Thanks tho

Tell me how you get brand new brass to fit in a tight neck chamber without turning ??? Do you just magically "iron" the neck down so the loaded round will fit in the chamber? If so, please enlighten me how that works. You have to turn new brass on tight chambers. Theres more to it than just throwing the damn things in a turner and going to town (FL size, trim, expand, turn, fireform and repeat), but you already seem to know everything so I shouldn't have to explain that to you.

 

[butchlambert]

I know exactly how it works in my hands. Been doing it for many years on thousands of cases. Everything is verified on neck wall concentricity and runout gauges. Thanks tho

Tell me how you get brand new brass to fit in a tight neck chamber without turning ??? Do you just magically "iron" the neck down so the loaded round will fit in the chamber? If so, please enlighten me how that works. You have to turn new brass on tight chambers. Theres more to it than just throwing the damn things in a turner and going to town, but you already seem to know everything so I shouldn't have to explain that to you.

Kid, grow up a little and listen some time. I spoke of 2 instances. The 6ppc and 30BR. I believe the OP said he was expanding the necks. Can you chamber a 220 Russian case in a 6ppc chamber or a 6mmBR case in a 30BR chamber? Don't care whether it is turned or not does it? It will chamber. I will take you in baby steps. We will deal with the 220 Russian brass If you are fireforming, it will fit in your 6ppc tight neck chamber with a fireforming load and a wax plug instead of a bullet. After fireforming you are left very little to expand and turn. Less chance of pushing the case out of TIR doing this. Works on any caliber or brass when you are necking up.
I know that you do not care for me, but think a little before barfing on the forum.

 

[alinwa]

I know exactly how it works in my hands. Been doing it for many years on thousands of cases. Everything is verified on neck wall concentricity and runout gauges. Thanks tho

Tell me how you get brand new brass to fit in a tight neck chamber without turning ??? Do you just magically "iron" the neck down so the loaded round will fit in the chamber? If so, please enlighten me how that works. You have to turn new brass on tight chambers. Theres more to it than just throwing the damn things in a turner and going to town, but you already seem to know everything so I shouldn't have to explain that to you.

I know exactly how it works in my hands. Been doing it for many years on thousands of cases. Everything is verified on neck wall concentricity and runout gauges. Thanks tho

Tell me how you get brand new brass to fit in a tight neck chamber without turning ??? Do you just magically "iron" the neck down so the loaded round will fit in the chamber? If so, please enlighten me how that works. You have to turn new brass on tight chambers. Theres more to it than just throwing the damn things in a turner and going to town (FL size, trim, expand, turn, fireform and repeat), but you already seem to know everything so I shouldn't have to explain that to you.

It's not magic....but I guess if you've neither the will nor the ability to bring the necks down to fit it might as well be.

I do all sorts of things to iron out necks/shoulders. Fitted mandrels, under-sized neck bushes for the FL die (VERY handy for setting a nice jam-fit to headspace new cases, while getting the neck to fit before turning) Wilson or other chucking reamers and carbide long-taper expander "balls", custom grinds from Neil Jones. Or sometimes a worn out barrel or a factory thro-away just for fireforming, sometimes I'll run in a neck reamer and open an old one up...... I do all sorts of wildcat chamberings and modified cases so I use all sorts of methods but the one thing I DO NOT do is argue on the innertube with burr-butted wannabe tuffguys....

So I'll just crawl back up my mountain and resume my omphaloskepsis

Ohm Ma'ni Padme Om

KMAG YOYO

 

[fyrewall]

This gets me back to loading my .375-.338. Two ways to make ammo (1) use the tapered expander button in the sizer die to go from .338 to .375 or (2) fire-form using cream of wheat. I would guess that new brass is not exactly concentric but expanding .338 up to .375 using the tapered expander button is sort of an exhibition of making crooked ammo. It wobbles when rolling it on a flat surface

The .375-.338 with 270 grain bullets has as a trajectory similar to a .308 W with 180 grain bullets and using good components good accuracy can be obtained. Normally, no neck turning would be needed but turning necks with the die expanded brass got into the shoulders but on the chamber fireformed brass necks were turned down evenly to the shoulder. I use a Lee magnum case trimmer shell holder chucked into my Dewalt cordless and a RCBS neck turner.

Shooting groups with .375 bullets is a challenge but the fatter bullets appear to make for better groups because the center to center measurements include bullet holes.

Pointy bullet selection is limited in the .375 but the 250 Sierra GK makes the .375-.338 into sort of like .308 Win trajectories with 150's up to 300 yards. Possibly, somebody might make a .375 boat tail hollow point match type bullet of 258 grains for shooting holes in paper targets. My rifle does not have a fast enough twist for 350 grain boat tail bullets.

 

[Campbell]

My thoughts as relative learner (2 1/2 years) to F/TR competition reloading:-

If the OP is getting a uniform cut on the length of the neck, the variance in cut on the shoulder must be due to the shoulder not being uniform in thickness. If my assertion is correct, then how does one correct the matter?

 

[spclark]

... the variance in cut on the shoulder must be due to the shoulder not being uniform in thickness.

No, not always.

When your goal is to make a very light cut into the shoulder brass before it turns onto the case necks, any minor variations in the angle of that shoulder brass will tend to push / pull the brass onto / away from your neck turner’s cutting edge. I see that most often in new brass being turned, much less so in brass that’s been fired once or twice.

 

[butchlambert]

It's not magic....but I guess if you've neither the will nor the ability to bring the necks down to fit it might as well be.

I do all sorts of things to iron out necks/shoulders. Fitted mandrels, under-sized neck bushes for the FL die (VERY handy for setting a nice jam-fit to headspace new cases, while getting the neck to fit before turning) Wilson or other chucking reamers and carbide long-taper expander "balls", custom grinds from Neil Jones. Or sometimes a worn out barrel or a factory thro-away just for fireforming, sometimes I'll run in a neck reamer and open an old one up...... I do all sorts of wildcat chamberings and modified cases so I use all sorts of methods but the one thing I DO NOT do is argue on the innertube with burr-butted wannabe tuffguys....

So I'll just crawl back up my mountain and resume my omphaloskepsis

Ohm Ma'ni Padme Om

KMAG YOYO

Al, I have followed your post on a couple forums for several years. You have tried several methods with brass, reloading, and rifle building. You have been kind enough to truthfully explain your trials and tribulations. If they have followed you, they will know why your methods are such as you have explained how a different method hasn't worked as well.

 

[Campbell]

No, not always.

When your goal is to make a very light cut into the shoulder brass before it turns onto the case necks, any minor variations in the angle of that shoulder brass will tend to push / pull the brass onto / away from your neck turner’s cutting edge. I see that most often in new brass being turned, much less so in brass that’s been fired once or twice.

Many sincere thanks for your post. I can see your point re variations in the shoulder angle causing the OP's observation.

Thanks again for educating me! There is so much to learn?

 

[T-shooter]

I've had trouble with new brass, especially Hornady. First I turn the necks resetting the depth as not to cut into the shoulders. Even though the necks are now the same thickness, the runout was still averaging .007 to .009". The I anneal the necks and shoulders. Running them through my full length Forster die with an expander pulls the necks back into alignment with the case body since the die centers by the outside of the neck. This usually gets them into the .002 to .003" range and firing them does the rest. After firing, I trim the lengths if necessary, run the neck turning tool over the cases again which usually does very little but picks off any higher spots. Then F/L resize them and hopefully most are .001" or less. The bad ones that didn't straighten are weeded out and used for fouling shots or plinking ammo.

 

[spclark]

Thanks again for educating me! There is so much to learn?

My pleasure.

I’ve long felt that’s why we’re all here (this life in general, this forum more specifically), to help each other.

And what this life is about, after all: to learn.

 

[alinwa]

..................or (2) fire-form using cream of wheat. I would guess that new brass is not exactly concentric but expanding .338 up to .375 using the tapered expander button is sort of an exhibition of making crooked ammo. It wobbles when rolling it on a flat surface

LOL!

SO true....

May I make a suggestion? You mention using COW. I hate COW and have had some bad experiences with it. But I blow out a ton of cases using just powder, no COW. Ken Howell advocates using just powder and his method is "start with 1/2 case and work up"

I've used Clays, 700X, 2400 and Bullseye.

I've done this for years on cases ranging from 6BR to 460 Weatherby and it works....... uses more powder than COW but it works extremely well. I recently ff'd a pile of 338's using 338-378's, 338 LM's and 300RUM's to 338 and found that starting with a half-case was very safe and easy even with the huge cases. I'll put a tiny wad of toilet paper just in the casemouth when I fireform out a window (cold outside, or raining) but mostly I just go outside and point to the sky.

You will ruin 6-8 cases but I write on them, shoot a pic and bag 'em and it's useful information

Just a thought

 

[alinwa]

BTW fyrewall..... that pic above is blowing 6.5X47L's out to 308 so's you can see just how much better-more concentric this method is than mandrelling.

 

[LGKLAS]

resume my omphaloskepsis

Ohm Ma'ni Padme Om

KMAG YOYO

'Al' I think you are most knowledgeable so when I see you post in a thread I am reading I always take care to read what you have to say. But this time you lost me here. (the above quote). I've been in internet groups since the mid 90s. As they say 'please help' lg

 

[alinwa]

'Al' I think you are most knowledgeable so when I see you post in a thread I am reading I always take care to read what you have to say. But this time you lost me here. (the above quote). I've been in internet groups since the mid 90s. As they say 'please help' lg

Sorry.... was kindofa' personal love note to Ledd.... try googling

Omphaloskepsis- Greek
"Om Mani..." - Sanskrit
KMAG YOYO- Mil-Spec Urban Dictionary

 

[dcali]

Many sincere thanks for your post. I can see your point re variations in the shoulder angle causing the OP's observation.

Thanks again for educating me! There is so much to learn?

I've been doing this for over 25 years, and there is still much, much more that I don't know than I do. I don't ever expect to learn even half of it.

 

[Brians356]

#2, brass right out of the box, ALL BRASS right out of the box is crookeder than Jewell's teeth. It HAS TO BE, there has been no attempt made to "straighten it." And the idea that some brands are straight and some aren't..... or that some will neck up concentric and some won't.... is just silly. You can't neck brass UP concentric no matter who you are and necking DOWN even fairly concentric requires special tooling. Necking up with shotgun powder makes it fairly concentric, within a thou or two....


Brass straight off the assembly line isn't fit to be "trimmed" or "turned" or otherwise modified more than a few thou.

That's why we fireform.

You want to have a straight cut on the shoulder? Blow the cases out first with shotgun powder.....make a straight concentric shoulder.

That's exactly why I always fireform (one way or another) new brass before neck turning.
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[Brians356]

I always like to fire-form before turning necks as well, but some of my tight neck chambers wont allow it. Brand new cases have to be turned or the rounds wont chamber. No other way around it. We pay good money to get quality brass from Lapua, they should make it right.

If you neck down with a bushing, just enough to clear the chamber neck, then fireform, you'd be golden.

When you examine how case are formed from a brass "coin" it's a wonder they come out as straight as they do. I don't care who's making them, at any price, fireforming can't help but uniform them IMNSHO.
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[Ledd Slinger]

If you neck down with a bushing, just enough to clear the chamber neck, then fireform, you'd be golden.

When you examine how case are formed from a brass "coin" it's a wonder they come out as straight as they do. I don't care who's making them, at any price, fireforming can't help but uniform them IMNSHO.
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Not possible fire-forming with bullets. I fire-form most of my brass while conducting barrel break in on a new pipe. I usually fire about 50+ rounds down the tube before I start conducting any sort of serious load testing. Speeds don't really settle down until about 50-100 rounds depending on the barrel. Then I will usually continue to fire-form more brass with bullets as foulers and sighters.

I have fire-formed without bullets by simply sizing a round, Unique powder, cream of wheat, and tissue in the neck if I want to keep round count down or setting up a new batch of brass on a well used barrel. But even then I will turn the necks on new brass.
*Never a need to use a smaller bushing than intended for normal use in the rifle because the neck should already come out smaller than the chamber neck diameter after sizing unless you purchased the wrong size bushings.

When done properly and with good brass, I have no issues turning with excellent concentricity onto the shoulder with my 21st Century turner on new brass after sizing, trimming, and expanding.
This is the last brand new box of brass I turned for a tight neck chamber rifle prior to fire-forming.

 

[Brians356]

Easier to fireform with just pistol powder (e.g. Bullseye) and pistol primer, while skipping the wad/filler/plug etc. Just use about 50% more powder than with the filler, and point the rifle straight up. I don't like fiddling with the wad and filler, plus it usually leaves a residue in the case.
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