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neck tension

Tom Thomson said:
biged
what's an op?
tommyt


Short for Original Poster. Used on online message boards and forums.

Meaning you are the one who asked the question, and we are trying to give the OP (you) an answer.

And no one is making fun of you, BUT it also means when people bum cigarettes from someone else it is said they like OP cigarettes. Meaning Other Peoples cigarettes and too cheap to buy their own. And since your question doesn't deal with tobacco your good to go. ;)
 
OK guys, while we are waiting for the OP to answer and get back to us you might as well "smoke em if you got them".

This post is really rockin'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FU9jR5x07s
 
biged
yes - std savage 110 in 308
no - not neck turning
no gages
as fired neck dia .344 - rcbs neck size .329 - loaded neck dia .339 - redding neck size dia .337
so i am reducing the neck .007 with the redding leaving me .002 neck tension
tommyt
 
Tom Thomson said:
biged
yes - std savage 110 in 308
no - not neck turning
no gages
as fired neck dia .344 - rcbs neck size .329 - loaded neck dia .339 - redding neck size dia .337
so i am reducing the neck .007 with the redding leaving me .002 neck tension
tommyt

By reducing the neck diameter .007 you would be better off with a standard full length resizing die using the expander.

With a bushing die the bushing floats, and if you read the links I posted when you reduce the diameter of the neck that much it can increase your neck runout.

Go back to your old die and work up a new load or reduce the necks in two steps with two different bushing sizes.

If it were me and having no neck thickness gauge or a runout gauge I would buy the Forster full length die.

Or just order the Forster expander and spindle assembly like I did for my RCBS full length die below.

IMG_2140_zpsea657d9e.jpg


Sizer_Die_011_zpst2zm6m7y.gif
 
bigedp51 said:
Tom Thomson

Is your Savage .308 a stock off the shelf factory rifle with a SAAMI chamber?

A standard full length non-bushing die needs the expander to expand the neck to the proper inside neck diameter. The expander also pushes/forces any neck irregularities to the outside of the neck.

If you are not neck turning your brass with your new bushing die your are just pushing any neck irregularities to the inside of the neck.

With a standard factory rifle and chamber if you are sizing the case neck over .005 at one time with a bushing die it can cause a increase in neck runout.

I would use a Forster full length die with its high mounted expander on any stock factory rifle and forget bushing dies.

If you do not have a neck thickness gauge and a runout gauge you will be better off with a standard full length die like the Forster and forget bushing dies.

Neck Tension, Bushing Dies and Other Reloading Mysteries
by Germán A. Salazar
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2009/10/reloading-neck-tension.html

Two-Step Sizing and Case Neck Concentricity
by: Germán A. Salazar
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/04/reloading-two-step-sizing-and.html

FL Bushing Dies vs. Honed FL Dies
http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/reloading/fl-bushing-dies-vs-honed-fl-dies/

Concerning the last article mentioned... I'm wondering when it was published. I have a no turn chamber (.272) and purchased blue box Lapua brass for my 6BRX this spring and the loaded rounds (Berger 105-108gr.) measure nowhere near what is printed in this article (.2699-.2699). Mine are between .2684 and .2690. I was hoping for a bit more consistency from Lapua. Did I get a bad lot of brass or have they changed the spec since this article was written?
 
After a couple of decades trying to figure out the truths behind neck tension and accuracy, have found that for the most part, I've been shooting at a moving target. IMHO, it's not a cut and dried proposition.

Every strategy I've tried can be defeated by things like work hardening, age hardening, bonding, and probably other factors Ive never even considered. No matter how hard I've tried to ensure uniform case attributes, I still believe that no case is truly identical to the one that precedes it and the one that follows it in the reloading sequence.

Perhaps this, more than any other factor, negates a lot of the more delicate accuracy stratagems. I have returned to SAAMI chambers and dies in the potential belief that a lot of these strategies work at odds with each other, possibly negating the effort and introducing higher complexities to what should probably be a more mundane and expedient process. The more things you do, the more potential inconsistencies you must face up to. I believe that by settling for some small degree of inaccuracy, the majority of the fewer truly necessary steps do the real heavy lifting where accuracy is concerned, and that additional effort could really be more usefully employed in concentrating more on marksmanship basics.

When we think we have every factor under control, what we may be doing is blindly ignoring those factors that are beyond our abilities to quantify, and therefore control in making our ammunition, I suspect there are a lot more we can't control then those we sincerely believe we can. At some point, the laws of diminishing returns apply; and we don't shoot much of the ammo because we spend so much time making it.

I use competition to test whether this simplification process can still produce acceptable accuracy, with winning being set aside and the real payoff coming in finding how close one can get to the products of other's all out intensive pursuit of accuracy at all costs. I don't win, but then, I'm not trying to, my goals are simpler. I shoot for enjoyment, and when I shoot better, I enjoy it more.

Some, maybe a lot of people, don't see any benefit to this approach. That's OK, they have their own goals, and mine really shouldn't threaten theirs at all. As I said, I've competed for several decades. As I approach 70, I'm turning down the wick a little, stopping to smell the spent gunpowder on the morning air.

A few things stand out regarding neck tension.

A certain minimal neck tension is required in order to achieve consistent ignition.

My testing mildly suggests that more tension than what is needed above might not be beneficial to accuracy; understanding that I was doing single feeding in a bolt gun for this testing. It appears to me that making a cartridge stand up to the various mechanical insults we inflict on it may require more neck tension than can be necessary to gain best accuracy.

If the bullet can be turned in the neck with thumb and forefinger, neck tension must be increased until it can't. Any round that resides in a magazine during firing needs even more neck tension to prevent setback.

There is more than one way to adjust neck tension, including partial length neck resizing.
 
All this "TALK" doesn't solve anything and your forgetting the main issue, the OP removed the expander in his first die and over resized his case necks. Then he went to a bushing die and complains about how his groups went to hell.

As far as I'm concerned much of what competitive shooters do with their custom made rifles with tighter chambers does not apply to off the shelf factory rifles.

The OP isn't neck turning and doesn't have the gauges to measure neck thickness and he is using a bushing die. If the OP doesn't want to excessively size the case neck he would be better of with a Forster full length die and if he chooses he can have the neck of the die honed.

All the OP is doing is pushing the case neck irregularities to the inside of his case necks with his new bushing die.

So why don't we talk about what the OP needs to fix his problem and not drift off the topic at hand.
 
JRS said:
Evidently, you are familiar with the usage and understanding of the english language, Biged ;) Reading comprehension also comes into play here ;D

And how many people here remove the expander from their dies without using "SOMETHING" to expand the case neck, and then jump to a bushing die.

What we need here is some "BASIC" instructions on how to use dies and getting the OP to understand his problem.

So instead of writing "War and Peace" length posting we should all be using "KISS" and stop making long winded speeches. This is reloading 101 and we are not getting through to the student.

There is also the possibility the reason the question was asked was to see how many stupid answers were given.

So lets get a "grip" on the subject.
 
bigedp51 said:
There is also the possibility the reason the question was asked was to see how many stupid answers were given.

Oh my :o now there's a thought: internet forum as cheap entertainment. ::)

Let's hope we haven't sunk quite that low, there're certainly enough other venues for such as that I suspect.
 
gstaylorg said:
Going from .010" neck tension to .002" would likely represent a noticeable change in MV, possibly a large enough change to account for some of your poor groupings. Did you chronograph the new load to compare with the old? If not, you should. It might be illuminating as to how much difference a significant change in neck tension can make.
Pretty sure gstaylord nailed it on the 6th post. I have seen MV difference of 100 fps with only 1 thousand difference in neck tension, more than enough to blow you off an accuracy node.
 
JarheadNY said:
Excuse me, but did I just piss in somebody's Wheaties?

Not mine my friend. I'm in agreement with much of what you put in your post, even down to the "... approach 70..." part. Shooting in competition gives me opportunities beyond those of solo range days but as I'm not there to win I can enjoy my pursuits a bit more broadly those infrequent times when I do.
 
Thanks, I just didn't want to be causing an uproar with one of my first posts on a new site.

As it happens, I actually agree with the entire gist of what's been posted prior to mine. I just also believe that my experience allows for a little bit of a philosophical approach; especially if it can impart hard won knowledge to a newer reloader. I've been posting such stuff for over 15 years elsewhere, with over 25,000 posts on just one site alone.

It took me a long time to realize that no matter how many years/posts I had, I held no entitlement to special consideration. Believe me, it's a hard lesson, and I no longer post at that older site because of my own embarrassment from getting that simple fact wrong.

Humility is never inappropriate.

To the OP:

My return to the simpler approach was done after a couple of decades of chasing my own tail and jumping on every bandwagon I could afford (and it was an awful lot). It began when another hunter whom I respected told me to forget about minutes of angle, and concentrate on minutes of venison. In that context, he had his priorities exactly right; and it led to the reflection that ultimate accuracy can be a hollow pursuit.

Perfection is simply not attainable, not ever; and many a shooter has broken their resolve in its pursuit. I then sought 'adequate accuracy', instead of 'ultimate accuracy'. I achieved everything I set out to do, and shooting became a lot more fun from that point on. Winning is for winners, and I'd had as much of it as I needed. Really, it wasn't very much anyway, and stepping up to the next plateau just wasn't that tempting. It comes easier to younger folks, and they have more time to enjoy it.

Two bouts with Lymphoma and a near fatal MI can make one a tad less ambitious and a tad more hesitant that way.

So if I tend to type 'War and Peace' from time to time, that's just me being an old war dog and waxing poetic. One's tolerance would be appreciated.

Greg Langelius
 
JarheadNY

No one is pissing in your Wheaties..............

BUT the OP approach of removing the expander on his first die and switching to a bushing die has me scratching my head. Meaning if you don't like what a standard die does to the case neck "WHY" remove the expander, when the die was designed to be used with the expander?

Meaning why is the OP using a bushing die without turning the necks?

Meaning why come in a reloading forum and say you went from .010 neck tension to .002 neck tension and ask why your groups turned to $hit.

We should be giving "basic" reloading instructions, starting with reading the front part of his reloading manuals.

The proper use of a full length die with a expander is reloading 101 and to go further you need a neck gauge, a runout gauge and neck turning tools.

I'm not trying to insult the OP but the replies here do not need to be waxing poetic when the OP needs reloading 101 and basic replies.
 
Some time back, I needed to reload some ammunition for a varmint rifle in .22-250, and the only FL die that I had was a one piece RCBS. Fearing the worst as far as concentricity was concerned, I decided to do a little experimenting. first I lubed the inside of the necks (and of course the outside of the cases), sized a few cases with the die in its normal configuration, and measured their runout at the ends of their necks on a Sinclair gauge. Then I raised the expander to a position similar to what a Forster die's would be and did the same thing. Still no joy. At that point I removed the expander, sized a case, and carefully expanded the neck with my Sinclair expander die (part of a neck turning setup) and .22 caliber mandrel. Seeing that the result of this experiment was better than the others, I did a number of cases that way, and was pleased with the improvement that it produced over previous results with one piece dies.

Of course a FL die that had had its neck ID opened up would have been much better, and for factory chambers and unturned necks combining a Lee Collet Die with a Body die is about as good as I have seen. But if one must use an unmodified one piece FL die, using it without the expander followed by expanding with an expander die gave me the best results when compared with the dies expander in any position that I tried.

Bushing dies cannot correct concentricity because their bushings float. The straightest sized brass that I have produce for my tight necked 6PPC using turned cases has come from a FL die that was originally made with the correct neck ID, and which is a good match for the chamber. As best as can be determined with an indicator that reads to .001, end of neck TIR is in the range of .0003 to .0005. I mention this for those who may think that one piece dies have no place in the serious pursuit of accuracy. They do. Obviously this part is not about basic reloading.
 
BoydAllen

As always your post are waxing practical and anyone reading them will learn a good deal. And also it was very well said. ;)
(and that's coming from someone the two dyslexic typing fingers) :o

Below my like button. ;)

FacebookLikeButton_zpssmao9vqc.png


Now if you would only buy one of my Enfield rifles and use it in competition the world would be perfect.
(its humor Boyd so don't tear me a new one) ;D
 
BoydAllen;

I tried something along similar lines, but with a regular RCBS F/L resize die. Not turning, not even gauging concentricity, but making an effort to get the neck centered in the chamber.

I backed off the die about 1-2 turns, so only about the last 2/3 of the neck got resized, the other part, just ahead of the shoulder, remaining expanded to the the post firing diameter. My bullet was seated with only the boat tail extending into the still expanded portion, so neck tension was probably not appreciably affected.

Still not the proverbial turd in a violin case, the cartridges chambered without any issue, and the accuracy clearly improved to the naked eye. Theoretically, the unexpanded portion of the neck served to support the neck/bullet closer to the center of the chamber in preparation for the jump into the leade.

*****​

On a different subject, can one obtain a F/L die from the manufacturer with the neck portion relieved to a less restrictive diameter; or are the bushing die or custom machining the only options?

On the .30BR, a friend who's a great gunsmith produced a two-step mandrel to bring the Lapua 6BR case up to .30BR size in a single pass. The chamber was kinda hokey to begin with (chambered as 6BR, then neck reamed with a .30-'06 die - not by my gunsmith friend) so I made do with an RCBS F/L die set. The barrel was a Navy 30cal M-14 contract overrun uncontoured barrel blank that had some atrocious tool mark issues. Shot great for a deer rifle, but missed the mark for comp.

*****​

Biged; I never said anyone was pissing in my Wheaties, I was just worried that someone might think I was pissing in theirs... If they did, I'm apologizing as I type...

Greg
 

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