Neck tension issues

[bulldog284]

Good evening

I’m stumped I got some ones fired federal match brass from a friend of mine,I full length sized it with a Redding non bushing die, I did a load development for the rifle for deer hunting and got some great results.everything cycled just fine with no problems.

Here is we’re I can’t understand what is going on the rifle is a Remington 700 blueprinted in 6.5 creedmoor, load development was done in late summer early fall bullet is a 120 grain Sierra pro hunter,the brass federal small primer brass once fired, the bullets are set at 40 tho off the lands.

My first day hunting temp was just under freezing spent the day outside when I came in I unloaded the rifle and the bullet stayed in the throat and separated from the case and powder everywhere so with no time to redo everything I just set the remaining bullets 25 tho more into the case thinking problem solved. Wrong next day just under zero temperature same problem at the end of day but this time the bullet stayed in neck and only came out of neck when it was getting ejected out of action, I was pissed and when I emptied the floor plate into my hand and dropped the remaining 3 rounds on the bench I noticed 2 of the bullets looked longer than then the other one, when I checked with my fingers I the bullets would move and I could remove them from the neck with my fingers.

The once that stayed in the house were all tight,the once that went outside loosened.i don’t understand why here are some numbers

Neck wall thickness is 14tho
Fired case neck .294
Full length sized Redding die .283
Sierra pro hunter diameter .263

I am stumped on this one any ideas?
Thank you in advance
Darin

 

[Doom]

I can think of only two things that might have caused this. The first is you missed sizing some of cases. The second is annealing the case neck to dead soft. In that case the neck will have almost no springback when the bullet is inserted. You may also have carbon in the neck region that is moving the bullets.

 

[fisherman987]

You're way overworking the necks. You're sizing them down .011 thousands, then you're expanding them .008 thousands when you seat the bullet, then your expanding them an additional .003 - .004 when you fire it. I would find a die that sizes the neck to .288". That will give you .003 neck interference/tension. Also, if the bullet stuck in the lands, you obviously are not jumping like you think you are. Re-establish where the bullet touch point really is as well. By not overworking the necks, this should be plenty of neck tension.

 

[10XSHOOTER]

Needmoor strikes again!

 

[L.Sherm]

Way over working the necks is why 90% of my dies are bushing FL dies so I dont.
Watch Alex Wheelers video on finding touch and bump and start there with seating.
I would try some non annealed cases.
Another suggestion is get some Lapua brass and skip the annealing if you are its not Always the answer.

 

[bulldog284]

I can think of only two things that might have caused this. The first is you missed sizing some of cases. The second is annealing the case neck to dead soft. In that case the neck will have almost no springback when the bullet is inserted. You may also have carbon in the neck region that is moving the bullets.

I didn’t forget to size some of the cases this I am sure of and when I was seating the bullets I could see the expansion on the necks when seating the bullets, and I never annealed

 

[bulldog284]

You're way overworking the necks. You're sizing them down .011 thousands, then you're expanding them .008 thousands when you seat the bullet, then your expanding them an additional .003 - .004 when you fire it. I would find a die that sizes the neck to .288". That will give you .003 neck interference/tension. Also, if the bullet stuck in the lands, you obviously are not jumping like you think you are. Re-establish where the bullet touch point really is as well. By not overworking the necks, this should be plenty of neck tension.

I agree with you on over working the brass in sizing, I haven’t annealed they are once fired. The bullets are difinetely not in the lands, and like I said the rounds that were in the box magazine that never got chambered still were loose in the neck

 

[bulldog284]

Way over working the necks is why 90% of my dies are bushing FL dies so I dont.
Watch Alex Wheelers video on finding touch and bump and start there with seating.
I would try some non annealed cases.
Another suggestion is get some Lapua brass and skip the annealing if you are it’s not Always the answer.

Cases are not annealed, and last night I did a test I sized 2 cases using the non bushing die and then I sized 2 cases using my Wilson bushing die with the bushing .288 then I put them in the freezer over night and the next morning I took them out and let them get to room temperature and after that I took a bullet and tried to push them in the neck. The ones I sized with the Redding die non bushing I can’t push them in the ones I used with the Wilson bushing die .288 I can’t push the bullet in the neck close to a 16th of an inch. I have been reloading for over 35 year’s first time seeing this problem

 

[L.Sherm]

You can or

I can’t push them in the ones I used with the Wilson bushing die .288 I can’t push the bullet in the neck close to a 16th of an inch.

Can or cannot push them in the neck 1/16 with the bushing die? If you can with .288 then my guess is your getting a ton of spring back, anneal or better quality brass.
Measure the .288 nk brass after sizing before freezer and after that might tell you something

 

[L.Sherm]

Brass that is thinner at the top of the neck is pretty common you will see it when you turn necks i believe it might be because of the making process

 

[64Rambler]

Way over working the necks is why 90% of my dies are bushing FL dies so I dont.

For the OP, @bulldog284 - not sure if Redding offers this service, but Forster will hone their non-bushing dies to whatever neck diameter you request.

 

[L.Sherm]

Jim at JLC Precision will convert to bushing die for about same cost I just got a 17 Javalina die back he did for me thats 3 now

 

[SeabeeKen]

A lot of good advice here. Seems colder temps would make the brass contract.
You dont mention the powder charge. Is it a compressed load? If it is heavily compressed, it can be pushing the bullets forward as neck tension relaxes slightly and causing bullets to jam when closing the bolt. I've seen this happen. I also agree you are overworking the brass. I never got the creedmoor thing myself with so many better hunting cartridges out there

 

[Mark611]

Just throwing this out there, I had a similar experience with an AR in 6.5 Grendel, with 123gn ELDM's they would not chamber, correctly they would go in but if I tried to open the bolt to extract them it pulled the bullet out of the case, I took the same steps you did, trying to seat them deeper into the case, and they still would not function correctly, I used new brass and all of the normal steps of my loading process, these bullets work just fine in my other 4 AR 6.5 GRRR barrels same brass same everything, this was a new build, I was checking for function before I fired the rifle, I checked the function with 3 other bullets I had loaded 123gn Nosler's 120gn ELDM's and 120gn SMK's all the brass was new brass {and the same brass} all the bullets were seated to the same OAL all of these rounds loaded and un loaded flawlessly, for whatever reason the 123gn ELDM's will not work in this barrel, I check all my cases with a Sheridan slotted case gage, before loading them to make sure the brass is in spec, especially for an autoloader, I also made sure the bullets were not out of spec, after they would not load in this chamber, go figure?

 

[charlie b]

If you can push a bullet into the Wilson sized case then it seems the cold is doing something. Brass metallurgy is very stable at low temps. You might have some shrinkage but it will be small, maybe .0001 And brass strength is very stable at low temps.

But, enlarged or smaller necks won't stick bullets, especially if you are jumping .040. Something is pushing them and I suspect it might be a carbon ring in the chamber/throat. Is your jump measured with a gauge?

Checking the seating depth in the chamber would be my next step. First with room temp brass. Then try it with the cold cycled brass from each of the dies. Measure oal (or bto) before and after chambering to make sure the bullets aren't moving during the process.

 

[243winxb]

For every degree Celsius of temperature increase, brass will expand by about 19 millionths of its original size, and will contract by the same amount when it cools.

Or 0.000019"

A 70F degree change would be .0013" difference.

if I did this correctly?

 

[243winxb]

am stumped on this one any ideas?

Measure OD of sized necks *before & *after bullet seating. After seating, OD should have gotten larger by .002" or more.
For a usable neck tension/ bullet hold.

*Post your results.

Expander needed to be .0015" to .002" smaller then bullet diameter.

 

[bulldog284]

Good evening
Here are a few more numbers for you
Fired case neck .294
Redding standard die sized .283 loaded outside diameter .289
Wilson bushing die with .289 bushing loaded outside diamete .289
The load I have 2 the first one is
44.8g of h4350 the other one is
45.3 of staball
Both have the same seating depth and that is with a Hornady bullet comparator is 2.238 and without the gauge base to tip of bullet is 2.732 to 2.740

A bit more on the rifle it’s a fresh build less the. 200 rounds cleaned regularly and NO carbon ring
I have heard a few of you mention that the brass is over worked or stressed, I have a hard time believing this remember this is the 2nd time fired I have loaded tons of federal brass I agree that lapua is better quality I have a bunch of it I just wanted a hunting round so if I was to loose a few pieces it wouldn’t bother me lol

I thank you for all your input
Darin

 

[243winxb]

Redding standard die sized .283 loaded outside diameter .289

More then enough/to much, neck tension @ .006". Bullet should not move if base is seated to neck/shoulder junction.

Wilson bushing die with .289 bushing loaded outside diamete .289

The neck OD needs measured after sizing by the bushing. This combination will provide zero bullet hold. After sizing with a bushing, brass spring back is outward, less bullet hold.

Looks like a .287" or .286" bushing is needed.

Measure OD of sized necks *before & *after bullet seating. After seating, OD should have gotten larger by .002" or more.
For a usable neck tension/ bullet hold.

 

[bulldog284]

More then enough/to much, neck tension @ .006". Bullet should not move if base is seated to neck/shoulder junction.


The neck OD needs measured after sizing by the bushing. This combination will provide zero bullet hold. After sizing with a bushing, brass spring back is outward, less bullet hold.

Looks like a .287" or .286" bushing is needed.

The problem isn’t with Wilson dies it’s the Redding once that I’m using that are giving me the problem