neck tension changes with time?

[300 RUM]

I said it before and I will say it again By profession I am an engineer/scientist in aerodynamics (aerodynamicist) and chemistry, I have a complete laboratory available for more testing then one can ever imagine. Send me your popping sound cases for analysis. I can tell you the hardness between a new never fired case neck v a 10x fired case never annealed or annealed every five shoots or what ever.

Why are people so darn stubborn and unwilling to learn what is really happening to their brass then to believe in wives tails.

I'm a scientist so I need hard proof, so anyone who can prove that bras and copper can cold fuse themselves together i.e. brass case and copper bullet the way we use it with physical, scientific evidence will receive some kind of prize maybe a contract for employment or some sort.

I'm not a metallurgist, but believe me I know many

 

[bozo699]

300rum,
The proof is in the pudding for me but thanks anyway, Boyd and I know,...not think but know this happens, I have personally had it happen on mollied bullets, anyway take care and happy experimenting!!
Wayne.

 

[BoydAllen]

No wives tales here...I have simply said when I do this, that happens. It does, repeatedly, and is reproducible. I have a friend who is a retired materials engineer, (who sometimes wishes he still had access to his lab). Some time back, we were discussing annealing, and he would always come up with a lot of theoretical conjecture that cast doubt on the probable outcome of the rather simple and crude methods that seemed to achieve the desired goals. Finally, he just tried it, and it worked very well. Sometimes, it is faster and easier to just try something and see what happens. I always liked science...still do, but I don't need to get into a theoretical discussion to build a wood fence.

 

[300 RUM]

300rum,
The proof is in the pudding for me but thanks anyway, Boyd and I know,...not think but know this happens, I have personally had it happen on mollied bullets, anyway take care and happy experimenting!!
Wayne.

Wayne it's not that it doesn't happen, but what is actually taking place is unknown, and the terminology is wrong. Not that I am actuay upset with anyone, but I have loaded for 25 years and have never experienced this issue and now an OPPORTUNITY presents itself and no one wants to take advantage of it.

 

[Heavies]

Ok. The correct terms are not being used, and 'cold weld' is an incorrect term. But being there is no correct term to use we still use it.

300 Rum, I would like to know your exact loading method you use to prevent the phenomenon from occurring, so I might be able to duplicate your results. (regards to your post of , "I have loaded rounds that have sat for 6+ months and they shoot just as well. To be honest one hole groups don't happen on their own and realistically ammo loaded today shooting one hole will still shoot one hole 1 year from now. ") Thank you.

These threads always go long and many great ideas are discussed. Thanks all

 

[bozo699]

300rum,
The proof is in the pudding for me but thanks anyway, Boyd and I know,...not think but know this happens, I have personally had it happen on mollied bullets, anyway take care and happy experimenting!!
Wayne.

Wayne it's not that it doesn't happen, but what is actually taking place is unknown, and the terminology is wrong. Not that I am actuay upset with anyone, but I have loaded for 25 years and have never experienced this issue and now an OPPORTUNITY presents itself and no one wants to take advantage of it.

Your right the terminology is wrong and I stated that in a very long thread Boyd started but the fact still remains,...the pop happens and when it does it takes maybe 10X the amount of force to move the bullet, I have had it happen with mollied 107 SMK's pre-loaded just a few days before the match then re-seated at the match, everyone had the POP!! and it wasn't in my head, does it always happen?....no,....do I think I know why it happened,....Yes,...can I prove it scientifically like you and jlow always sem to need to do?....no and I don't need to, I don't need scientific proof that it is dark out! if I can't see without a flashlight then it is dark out!!! and the same goes with the imfamous POP I don't need a controlled scientific experiment for me to believe it happens, I already know that it happens and I believe I know why,..at least if I follow certain practices it doesn't happen and it I duplicate certain practices I can reproduce it, so that is all the proof I need!! we can save ourselves a lot of headaches and bandwidth if you would just read this then call jlow when your done reading it, he is a scientist also and probably hasn't shot a single bullet since he got involved in the thread because he is to busy trying to prove it can't happen!......Best of luck to you in your resurch, I have shooting to do ,...Seeya
Wayne.



http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=3785592.msg36062677;topicseen#msg36062677

 

[300 RUM]

Heavies, keep in mind I batch process up to as many as 2,000+ 308's and .223's for rifle and 9mm and 45acp for pistole at the same time, if I engage in load development things change a bit. I don't do all my brass (rifle and pistol) in one run(week) they are done over the winter time when I have time. This means if I intend to process .223's I do them all, 45acp I do them all etc. I hope I explained that correctly or get what I am saying at least. SO


Shoot
deprime
clean in my "Crest Ultrasonics" ultrasonic cleaner they look new inside and out (most of the time)
rinse with distilled water at 200deg
dry


For match rifle brass where a match is 600yd = 66 rounds or a 1,000yd match where I may use some additional sighters lets say = 75 they go into a ziplock bagie and stored in one of my 50cal storage boxes.(I keep the brass separated by match)
for pistol I just pile them in the specific caliber marked 30 cal storage box.

I will anneal my match brass as I feel necessary every 5th time maybe +/-


When time comes to process I will choose a caliber and lube with Hornady one shot including the inside of the necks( for rifle I always FL size)After sizing I trim and chamfer then put them in a 5 gal bucket and rinse them again with distilled water at about 200deg to remove the left over lube.
Let dry and then into the tumbler to polish ( I like shiny) I use a med/fine walnut/corn combo media with dryer sheets cut up in the media to collect the fine dust. Keep in mind all the brass is still kept separate according the their original match count as much as possible. I do nothing to the inside of the necks at this time. They are stored until I am ready to prime, drop powder and seat a bullet.

When I start to load I run a case neck brush through the neck, prime, drop powder and seat the bullet. I usually seat the bullet to what would be a .015 jamb condition. I load by match count so 66 or 75 to say at a time. What I end up with at the end of a loading day is about 12-12 loaded boxes of ammo.

The key factor for me being able to preload my match ammo is I always keep the same amount of powder charge for that caliber and adjust the seating depth only and only if need be. (This work unbelievably well)

Now, I do load and seat to proper depth if I know I will not have any time to make adjustments in the months to come. After loading I will go and shoot maybe 20-40 and get my seating depth correct. Then come home and drop the bullet to the new correct depth.
Ok so by the end of the year I will always have several hundred rounds left over from the beginning of the year. These are used to practice with or use at a match. Some are are with a bullet that has been seated for months and some where a bullet needs to be correctly seated.

We all know that our rifles like to change on us so i would be a fool to put all my eggs in one basket, that's why I have some loaded to correct seating depth and some loaded to be seated later. End results I can shoot ammo that has been loaded months ago with the same results as when I started and if there are suspected changes with in my rifle I can make seating adjustments also.

In any event I shoot for score F T/R, your not going to put bullets holes on top of each other at 1,000 yards, but I do look for a 1/2 moa or better from myself and my ammo. When I suspect a ammo problem I go to the 300 yard marker and start shooting. If I can not keep 50% into a 1/2 moa I look for the problem. I use 50% because I may be the other 50% of the problem if you know what I mean.

I dont know if this will help you or not?

Good luck

 

[Heavies]

Thank you 300 RUM. I will try that out.
Right now I I'm doing something similar, I just don't do bulk processing like you do. I would like to do bulk, so this insight gives me somewhere to start.

 

[djtjr]

i too have seen a significant change in group size with great loads that have sat for a few months. so much so that i usually don't have many rounds loaded sitting aground anymore i would love to have them all set and loaded but they just don't shoot the same for me.

to be honest it may be the rifle changing more than ammo

I agree 300 RUM, I have loaded rounds that have sat for months then take them to a match and they shoot the same as when I loaded them months back, however rifles DO change. As we shoot them the barrels begin to deform on the inside and they will definately change the way they shoot!

I store my pre-loaded ammo in dry box's with descent along side my powder and primers. Most of today's powders and primers have a very long shelf life a minimum or 10 years and in most cases up to 50 years, about the same for primers. If you doubt my statement I suggest you do your home work before commenting.

If you want the most out of your brass size them and wait 30 days to load them. On the other hand if you size them and just waited 24 hours to load, most of the brass spring back will be complete.

Think of your rifle like a pair of shoes they start off wonderful but after a while the start to hurt your feet, the shoes change not your feet in most cases.

I am not sure the purpose of you tone in telling people to do their homework on an argument that i dont think anyone was contesting. The longevity of powders or primers were not part of the topic till you brought them up, only that bullets get sticky in necks over time and that the corresponding changes effect pressure velocity harmonics ore any one of multiple factors that can affect accuracy. I have notices it and others with a lot more experience than i have as well i wish it was not the case and perhaps you are lucky. The use of "cold" weld is perhaps the issue and is probably scientifically not what is happening but the idea of the bullet sticking in there still remains regardless of nomenclature.

 

[bozo699]

i too have seen a significant change in group size with great loads that have sat for a few months. so much so that i usually don't have many rounds loaded sitting aground anymore i would love to have them all set and loaded but they just don't shoot the same for me.

to be honest it may be the rifle changing more than ammo

I agree 300 RUM, I have loaded rounds that have sat for months then take them to a match and they shoot the same as when I loaded them months back, however rifles DO change. As we shoot them the barrels begin to deform on the inside and they will definately change the way they shoot!

I store my pre-loaded ammo in dry box's with descent along side my powder and primers. Most of today's powders and primers have a very long shelf life a minimum or 10 years and in most cases up to 50 years, about the same for primers. If you doubt my statement I suggest you do your home work before commenting.

If you want the most out of your brass size them and wait 30 days to load them. On the other hand if you size them and just waited 24 hours to load, most of the brass spring back will be complete.

Think of your rifle like a pair of shoes they start off wonderful but after a while the start to hurt your feet, the shoes change not your feet in most cases.

I am not sure the purpose of you tone in telling people to do their homework on an argument that i dont think anyone was contesting. The longevity of powders or primers were not part of the topic till you brought them up, only that bullets get sticky in necks over time and that the corresponding changes effect pressure velocity harmonics ore any one of multiple factors that can affect accuracy. I have notices it and others with a lot more experience than i have as well i wish it was not the case and perhaps you are lucky. The use of "cold" weld is perhaps the issue and is probably scientifically not what is happening but the idea of the bullet sticking in there still remains regardless of nomenclature.

Very well put sir.
Wayne.

 

[300 RUM]

Well djtjr your right, but i'll put it this way. If your car is making a funny sound and acts very differently from what it should be acting like you would take it to the shop and find out whats wrong with it and then fix the problem would you not?

After a half a million rounds under my belt no I have never have this poping sound happen to me. I also don't rule out the fact that it may indeed be present for some people. I have also asked that anyone with this occurrence to send me the problem round for analysis. If I can get one of these round and do a through examination on it, it is possible that I could not just discover what the actual problem is, but discover a solution to resolve any further issues. The fact that people would rather live with a problem then fix it what really bothers me.

 

[bozo699]

Well djtjr your right, but i'll put it this way. If your car is making a funny sound and acts very differently from what it should be acting like you would take it to the shop and find out whats wrong with it and then fix the problem would you not?

After a half a million rounds under my belt no I have never have this poping sound happen to me. I also don't rule out the fact that it may indeed be present for some people. I have also asked that anyone with this occurrence to send me the problem round for analysis. If I can get one of these round and do a through examination on it, it is possible that I could not just discover what the actual problem is, but discover a solution to resolve any further issues. The fact that people would rather live with a problem then fix it what really bothers me.

FIX= Brush inside if necks thoroughly after cleaning or firing before loading!
Do you use Wilson or other inline dies?
Wayne.

 

[jlow]

Yes,...can I prove it scientifically like you and jlow always sem to need to do?....no and I don't need to,

I can see that name is being used in vain, so I should say something ;D!

Wayne, the reason we always urge the use of scientific proof is because you always get annoyed at us when we do – LOL! ;D

No, silly boy, it’s not because we are out to annoy you but because as long as there is not a clear and carefully done scientific study and proof as to whether it happens and what causes it to happen, it’s always going to be this type of discussion which annoys people since it can never be settled.

 

[bozo699]

Yes,...can I prove it scientifically like you and jlow always sem to need to do?....no and I don't need to,

I can see that name is being used in vain, so I should say something ;D!

Wayne, the reason we always urge the use of scientific proof is because you always get annoyed at us when we do – LOL! ;D

No, silly boy, it’s not because we are out to annoy you but because as long as there is not a clear and carefully done scientific study and proof as to whether it happens and what causes it to happen, it’s always going to be this type of discussion which annoys people since it can never be settled.

Oh I get it now you mean a far vast left wing Liberal democrat thingy,.....well no wonder I could never get it!!! There minds are so open all there brains have fallen out and I am so closed minded nothing can get in or out!!! I totally understand now, I wished you had explained it to me this way a couple of years ago and we could have saved a lot of bandwidth,... ;D take care my open minded friend, I need not say anymore :-X Have a great day
Wayne.

 

[Hopkins]

Avoiding the cold fusion or immaculate seating issues does anyone have experience comparing range seated loads (less than 12hrs prior) to the same loads assembled several days-several weeks in advance of use? If so, what was the result?

 

[jlow]

Yes,...can I prove it scientifically like you and jlow always sem to need to do?....no and I don't need to,

I can see that name is being used in vain, so I should say something ;D!

Wayne, the reason we always urge the use of scientific proof is because you always get annoyed at us when we do – LOL! ;D

No, silly boy, it’s not because we are out to annoy you but because as long as there is not a clear and carefully done scientific study and proof as to whether it happens and what causes it to happen, it’s always going to be this type of discussion which annoys people since it can never be settled.

Oh I get it now you mean a far vast left wing Liberal democrat thingy,.....well no wonder I could never get it!!! There minds are so open all there brains have fallen out and I am so closed minded nothing can get in or out!!! I totally understand now, I wished you had explained it to me this way a couple of years ago and we could have saved a lot of bandwidth,... ;D take care my open minded friend, I need not say anymore :-X Have a great day
Wayne.

Thanks Wayne! Glad to be of help! ;D

 

[bozo699]

welcome, and thanks also,...seeya my friend
Wayne.

 

[lpreddick]

300 RUM: i will send you the 4 remaining rounds in a group i loaded 4 years ago...6-284, 105 berger bt in norma brass. on sat i adjusted my 6-284 bullet seater .005 deeper than the above round. the POP was so loud that my neighbor might have heard it!!! i inserted this round in my inertia bullet puller and struck a concrete floor a couple of times and noted the bullet coming out by about.1 in. i then reseated the bullet and it went into the neck like it was greased. the portion of the bullet that was in the neck was very shiney while the exposed portion was oxidized . i feel very confident the remaining 4 rounds will pop as well. i need to know if i can ship loaded rounds by mail or ups and if so i need your mailing address...i do not want to break any federal laws over this. i am sure there are others who will ship such rounds to you, as i too enjoy the scientific approach to understanding how and why things happen when loading and firing centerfire cartridges. let us know.

 

[Heavies]

300 RUM: i will send you the 4 remaining rounds in a group i loaded 4 years ago...6-284, 105 berger bt in norma brass. on sat i adjusted my 6-284 bullet seater .005 deeper than the above round. the POP was so loud that my neighbor might have heard it!!! i inserted this round in my inertia bullet puller and struck a concrete floor a couple of times and noted the bullet coming out by about.1 in. i then reseated the bullet and it went into the neck like it was greased. the portion of the bullet that was in the neck was very shiney while the exposed portion was oxidized . i feel very confident the remaining 4 rounds will pop as well. i need to know if i can ship loaded rounds by mail or ups and if so i need your mailing address...i do not want to break any federal laws over this. i am sure there are others who will ship such rounds to you, as i too enjoy the scientific approach to understanding how and why things happen when loading and firing centerfire cartridges. let us know.

lpreddick,
Thank you for sending in the rounds.

300Rum, Thank you for offering to use your scientific equipment at your disposal to test and study the actual reasons for the phenomena.

I can't wait to see what the results might be.

 

[BoydAllen]

I think that it might be useful if we qualify the use of the term "cold welding" when applied to situations that come up in reloading, as descriptive of the bullet becoming much harder to move within the case neck than any amount of neck tension produced friction can produce. Those of us who have experienced this phenomenon have come to the conclusion that the condition of the inside of case necks, probably the outside of bullets, and the length of time that a round has been loaded are all variables that relate to its occurrence. Given the extreme increase in force required to break loose a bullet from its seated position, and the "pop" that is commonly heard when it does, shooters have come to the conclusion that some sort of bonding between bullet and case neck has taken place. Determining that this is actually cold welding may be argued, but those that have challenged this explanation have not offered an alternate explanation, and while we lack scientific proof, there is a general understanding as to what is meant in the context of a discussion of cartridge reloading. One alternate explanation, that I find interesting, is the formation of a shared oxide layer, similar to when two parts become "frozen" together by rust. It seems possible to me that bullets could be minutely scratched during seating, to a degree that would not adversely affect accuracy, and in these areas, form a common oxide layer with the inside of the case neck. This is just a guess, but I think that it is a possible alternate explanation. In any case, the use of "cold welding" has a long history in the field of ammunition loading, and a common understanding of the effect that is being referred to.