Neck Tension vs Accuracy

[johara1]

Jim I know the only thing holding the bullet is the pressure ring, same thing in my gun, shot all season that way. I also have a 284 and with 180 vlds I have the same problem, after the ring goes past the sized part of the neck the bullet just falls in. Your issue is the bullet moving when your try to jam ,010 right? Does it matter what holds the bullet if it holds? Thats why I suggested to not brush the neck, the extra friction may help from unseating the bullet.

Alex, The problem is it such a small area holding the bullet it pulls on opening, no matter how much neck tension blue box or brown box brass, i wax, grease the bullets to try to open it to verify the seating depth and it pulls it. I trimmed and turned necks on 6 br brass and used them unfired and it pulls them, so i gave up and shoot them jumped…… jim

 

[jlow]

Seems like one problem here is you guys are using a bushing die which never size the neck all the way by design. If you use a Lee Collet Die, it will in fact size the neck almost all the way to the shoulders and give you the ability to seat the bullet deeper and not have the bullet go past where the pressure ring will have a hold. Greater spring back i.e. less annealing would also appear to be useful in this case.

 

[savagedasher]

If all your wanting is to do is verify the seating depth .Try making a rod that you insert from the front of the barrel. That is the most accurate way. With two adjusting rings you should be abele to get a accurate number.
You will need the second one when you are shooting to open the bolt and not dump the powder.
Always remove the rod before you shoot.
We had a shooter that was having a problem getting the cases out after shooting the fool left the rod in and shot a 338 Lapua
Larry

 

[johara1]

Seems like one problem here is you guys are using a bushing die which never size the neck all the way by design. If you use a Lee Collet Die, it will in fact size the neck almost all the way to the shoulders and give you the ability to seat the bullet deeper and not have the bullet go past where the pressure ring will have a hold. Greater spring back i.e. less annealing would also appear to be useful in this case.

jlow, I can't the point of your reasoning, the die makes no difference at all. Once the pressure ring pushes through there isn't enough spring back to grip the bullet in front of the pressure ring. I tried less annealing, new unfired brass and annealed and the same result…….. no problems with any other bullet……… jim

 

[johara1]

If all your wanting is to do is verify the seating depth .Try making a rod that you insert from the front of the barrel. That is the most accurate way. With two adjusting rings you should be abele to get a accurate number.
You will need the second one when you are shooting to open the bolt and not dump the powder.
Always remove the rod before you shoot.
We had a shooter that was having a problem getting the cases out after shooting the fool left the rod in and shot a 338 Lapua
Larry

Larry, only two things go down my barrels,both start at the rear……… jim

 

[jlow]

Seems like one problem here is you guys are using a bushing die which never size the neck all the way by design. If you use a Lee Collet Die, it will in fact size the neck almost all the way to the shoulders and give you the ability to seat the bullet deeper and not have the bullet go past where the pressure ring will have a hold. Greater spring back i.e. less annealing would also appear to be useful in this case.

jlow, I can't the point of your reasoning, the die makes no difference at all. Once the pressure ring pushes through there isn't enough spring back to grip the bullet in front of the pressure ring. I tried less annealing, new unfired brass and annealed and the same result…….. no problems with any other bullet……… jim

I think you are missing the point. Using the LCD will (unlike a bushing die) allow most if not all the neck to be sized, so unless you seat your bullet so deep that the pressure ring goes past the shoulders, you will have more room to seat the bullet without the pressure ring pushing through.

 

[johara1]

jlow, when i say push through, i mean going down the neck. I never let the pressure ring go past the sized part of the neck, i have non bushing dies i use that size the whole neck right to the shoulder. At my seating depth i use i am no where near the end of the sized part of the neck. From where the pressure ring stops when seating, the part of the neck is so expanded it doesn't spring back to hold at all……. jim

 

[jlow]

jlow, when i say push through, i mean going down the neck. I never let the pressure ring go past the sized part of the neck, i have non bushing dies i use that size the whole neck right to the shoulder. At my seating depth i use i am no where near the end of the sized part of the neck. From where the pressure ring stops when seating, the part of the neck is so expanded it doesn't spring back to hold at all……. jim

So why are you having a problem? If you size with a bushing and don’t push your pressure ring pass the area of the neck where the bushing size, you should not have any problem with bullet retention? Really the only reason I can think of is you have at one time or another annealed and soften your neck so much that it is now just putty soft.

 

[jlow]

I understand that it is in fact a narrow ring (thus the name) and it is only 0.0005” thicker.

But here is my question – does that mean the setup is designed to not to give a reloader any hold as you slide that down a neck if it has factory neck tension as johara1 has described many times? Is that what others are finding? The answer appears to be no if you look at zfastmalibun response #67 (page 5).

So really it narrows down to the neck… (no pun intended). Since Johara1 is annealing everytime and so one has to wonder if the problem is over annealing.

 

[johara1]

I tried not annealing, doesn't work for me too erratic. How can you over anneal? the only you can hurt the case is to over heat it and i did a lot of testing on that BS. also. jlow i want you to think about something if it won't grip the bullet ahead of pressure ring with new unfired brown box and Blue box Lapua BR. brass what would you say maybe Lapua over annealed it too? There is just not enough spring back in short Dasher neck to grip the bullet with turned necks after the pressure ring goes through. With the bullet going into the lands and gripping that 360 degrees at ogive it over comes the little bit grip in the neck. The only way is to jump them…….. jim

 

[jlow]

Some good points if it does not work with new unfired brass, I presume that has been properly sized.

So pragmatically speaking, you are using a system that is either designed up front to not give you any significant grip or there is a design flaw at least from the standpoint of someone who wants neck tension. From either perspective, I would not expect to get any answer from this board which would change anything. I would suggest instead talking to the manufacturer and if they don’t give you any satisfaction, switching to another system.

I mean what exactly were you hoping for knowing what you know?

 

[Old Navy]

If all your wanting is to do is verify the seating depth .Try making a rod that you insert from the front of the barrel. That is the most accurate way. With two adjusting rings you should be abele to get a accurate number.
You will need the second one when you are shooting to open the bolt and not dump the powder.
Always remove the rod before you shoot.
We had a shooter that was having a problem getting the cases out after shooting the fool left the rod in and shot a 338 Lapua
Larry

Larry, only two things go down my barrels,both start at the rear……… jim

+10 on that. Later! Frank

 

[johara1]

jlow, I would guess i found what i expected…………. jim

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Jim, is the only problem when you open the bolt? Why not just shoot the damn things jammed and not worry if it pulls the bullet? Just dont open the bolt. Or is it pushing the bullet back in the case when you close the bolt?

 

[Patch700]

With regards to what Alex touched on , to make em stick so to speak in instances such as this where you're trying to make chicken salad out of chicken poop , take a calibre specific wire brush to the inside necks and get a cross hatch pattern... you wanna see bullet grip you'll see bullet grip lol.

 

[BoydAllen]

We did some annealing to make shoulder bump in a couple of thick shouldered magnums more consistent, but we had to retain pretty much stock seating force and bullet hold, because these were accurate hunting rifles. To get the shoulder problem solved, and not soften the necks very much if at all, was very touchy as to annealing time, using a two torch rotary annealer that pauses cases in the flames. IMO if you are trying to keep bullet pull, and make it uniform by annealing (partial annealing, stress relieving?) the process becomes very critical. In short, it is very easy to miss your mark. We did our setup with 500 degree Templaq painted from the point of the shoulder down the body, and set the time to turn its color about where you see the annealing marks on a Lapua case.

 

[allenn]

You might try turning the necks to .008 on one or two cases.

 

[dedeadeye]

Jim, maybe what I do with the Spencer's will help you. Been following this thread for 2-3 days. If you remember I purchased 1400 103's with a .2437 pressure ring, shortly before Clay sold his business. On Monday I took 19 cases that were h2o sorted for my .267 neck/.145 freebore Dasher that had been turned to .0105. I sized and returned them to .0102 on my K&M and used them to test a new lot of Hybrids in my Brux. Took the fired cases and cleaned with 0000 steel wool, brushed inside with a 6.5 Iosso brush on a cordless, annealed 3 seconds on Bench Source, full length sized in Harrell with .262 bushing, brush inside again with Iosso brush on cordless. Charged and seated 5 rounds to .008 in on the hydro press at 24-26 pounds. Measured and chambered them, no push back. 5 more with another .005 to .013 in, no push back. Another 5 rounds another .005 to .018 in. Only 1 moved back .003. Took the remaining 4 and seated back to .013 in, no push back.
I do believe the short time in the annealer and the spinning brush moving in and back out puts a fine cross hatch inside the necks. What ever I am doing, either wrong or right works with the Spencer's not moving for me. Maybe give it a try on a few new cases. Leave me know. Roger Gower

 

[BoydAllen]

Roger,
Bingo!

 

[johara1]

Jim, maybe what I do with the Spencer's will help you. Been following this thread for 2-3 days. If you remember I purchased 1400 103's with a .2437 pressure ring, shortly before Clay sold his business. On Monday I took 19 cases that were h2o sorted for my .267 neck/.145 freebore Dasher that had been turned to .0105. I sized and returned them to .0102 on my K&M and used them to test a new lot of Hybrids in my Brux. Took the fired cases and cleaned with 0000 steel wool, brushed inside with a 6.5 Iosso brush on a cordless, annealed 3 seconds on Bench Source, full length sized in Harrell with .262 bushing, brush inside again with Iosso brush on cordless. Charged and seated 5 rounds to .008 in on the hydro press at 24-26 pounds. Measured and chambered them, no push back. 5 more with another .005 to .013 in, no push back. Another 5 rounds another .005 to .018 in. Only 1 moved back .003. Took the remaining 4 and seated back to .013 in, no push back.
I do believe the short time in the annealer and the spinning brush moving in and back out puts a fine cross hatch inside the necks. What ever I am doing, either wrong or right works with the Spencer's for me. Maybe give it a try on a few new cases. Leave me know. Roger

Roger, that is what i do exactly …… what reamer did you use?…… mine don't push back but they pull and i did try it with new unfired, un annealed case and they still pull. It will shoot very small if i find zero and and a .010 shim on the seater die. but i can't open the bolt. ….. jim