Neck sizing with bushing help

[savageshooter86]

Thanks everyone. Probably taking die and brass and rifle to Whidden to let him feel what is going on. Still think it is strange that fired brass chambers smooth and the sized brass feels different.

Hoping to FL size a case and compare how it feels to the partially sized. That will tell me if it is the die or maybe that is how my rifle bolt feels

 

[savageshooter86]

Called Whidden and was told to bump shoulder back even more. Tried it and at 4 thous shoulder bump it chambered smooth. That seems like a lot of shoulder bump :-\ But it worked.

Was told that on a headspace gauge their dies cases read like 140 and on the Redding dies it reads like 125. So was told I may have to bump shoulders 4-6 thous to get a very smooth chambering

 

[BoydAllen]

I routinely bump .001 with a bushing FL die and have no problems. One issue that can fool you is that all cases may not be of the same hardness, and therefore may not bump the same, at the same die setting. Some time back, we loaded some ammo for a friend's magnum, and set the bump for a couple of thousandths. When the ammo was fired, some of the bolt closures were difficult. Later we discovered that the brass varied a lot in hardness and that careful annealing made the bumps much more uniform, solving the problem. This would have looked like more bump was necessary but that was not the real problem. Did you check the bump on all cases or just the one you set up the die with? As cases are fired and sized repeatedly, they work harden and require a different die setting to get the same bump, due to greater spring back. Another thing that could be involved is an expander pushing a doughnut to the outside of a case, increasing neck shoulder junction diameter. The reason that I mention this is that you mentioned that the problem got better when you removed the expander and bushing. Can you do a test without the expander, but with the bushing? If the shoulder angle of the die is the same as the chamber, and you are measuring the same case, before and after sizing, I think that you should get a good bolt close with a minimal bump, if the die is a good match for the chamber.

 

[CatShooter]

Called Whidden and was told to bump shoulder back even more. Tried it and at 4 thous shoulder bump it chambered smooth. That seems like a lot of shoulder bump :-\ But it worked.

Was told that on a headspace gauge their dies cases read like 140 and on the Redding dies it reads like 125. So was told I may have to bump shoulders 4-6 thous to get a very smooth chambering

Unfortunately... that 4-6 thou will be taken up by case stretch just in front of the web, when the case is fired - not good.

The case heads will separate at some point.

 

[BoydAllen]

Note correction in my previous post. Did not sufficiently proof, and spell check does not recognize one two few zeros as a problem.

 

[savageshooter86]

Boyd the cases are 1x fired Lapau 308 win cases. I measured the shoulder of unsized cases and checked them by chambering them. They went smooth. Set the die up and consistently getting 2.5 thous bump. The expander mandrel on the Whidden die is removed. Nothing is touching the inside of the necks. Fired cases are 1.6115 on my comparator. Set up for 1.609 I can feel some "tightness" when chambering. At 1.608 they go in smooth. So far I have done about 30 pieces of brass by bumping the 2 thous and was getting the slight "tightness" feel.

But on the Redding body die 1.610 go in smooth like butter.

Guys at Whidden told me the die was not sizing down far enough and turn die down further and bump shoulders back more to size more down the case.

Unfortunately... that 4-6 thou will be taken up by case stretch just in front of the web, when the case is fired - not good.

This is why I was trying to only bump back 2.5 thous at most. :-\

I just don't see why the fired brass chambers smoothly and then the resized brass is "tighter" after FL sizing with the Whidden die set to bump shoulders back

 

[BoydAllen]

I bump back from the dimension that give a tight bolt close, not from once fired. If I have to work without tight case as a reference, if the once fired chambers OK, and it for a bolt rifle, I set the die to put the shoulder where it was after one firing. It takes several hot firings neck sized for a case to get long enough at the shoulder to get tight there. The Whidden die may not be a good match for your chamber. Bumping the shoulder as far as you are will thin in front of the head prematurely, and require more trimming. Nothing is free. If I had a fired case, one sized with the body die, and one sized with the Whidden die in front of me, I might be able to work this out, but over the internet, I doubt that I will come up with a definitive solution. If the Whidden die does not size down the case far enough without a long bump, and the rifle is headspaced within specs. (checked with a gauge by a smith) I might send it back. I forget; how much bump from a once fired case, with the Whidden die, does it take for you to get the feel that is just barely drag free? If the die had a little to much reach to be able to bump the shoulder before reaching the shell holder, you could fix it, but the other way around you can't, unless it is a Savage and you have enough room between the end of the bolt and the back of the barrel to shorten the headspace a little. If you are shooting a factory installed Savage barrel, we know how they are installed, and you have very nearly minimum headspace , and you shouldn't have to set the barrel back below minimum. In that case, it is a die issue...I think.

 

[Tim Singleton]

Boyd maybe on to it. It maybe a little long on head space.

SAAMI Base to shoulder datum line should be 1.5598
A fired case that measures 1.6115 with allowing spring back maybe a little on the long side

http://www.saami.org/pubresources/cc_drawings/Rifle/308%20Winchester.pdf

Maybe why the body die and the whidden die don't match each other.
Still doesn't answer the original question of why after neck sizing there is interference

 

[savageshooter86]

We installed Shilen barrel using go and no gauges. Set the headspace on the short side using the gauges.

I have to bump 3 thous to get a good feel chambering. Comparator reading of 1.6125 is getting there of tough chambering-2x fired. 1.6115 once fire chambers good. Whidden die requires 1.6085 to feel smooth.

 

[243winxb]

So the brass unsized portion of neck is 345" Chamber has a .345" neck If I remember correctly according to Dave. My fired brass is coming out 344"

Hows the memory? ;D Like the man said, screw the die down more. Increase shoulder bump, till it chambers freely.

 

[BoydAllen]

I Disagree. If you cannot get the bolt close that you need within the limits of reasonable bump, you need a different die...period. There are other things that are involved like separations after repeated firing and FL sizing.

 

[savageshooter86]

Boyd I believe I need to send the die back to Whidden along with several fired cases and get him to make me a die? :-\

The good thing here is when bumping shoulders I am getting very consistent shoulder bumps case to case.

Would I tell them I want to the die made so it bumps shoulders back 1 thous minimum or how does that work?

 

[BoydAllen]

PM me, and I will give you my phone number. This kind of thing is easier on the phone. My long distance is free, so let me know if you want me to call you instead.

 

[savageshooter86]

Last thought for tonight on this. Just took out my 2x fired cases and at 1.614 the bolt is pretty noticeable tougher to close. So if I bump less than that the brass should chamber easier IF the die is doing the proper sizing

 

[284driver]

Try only sizing with the body did them chamber the case.

 

[243winxb]

Gauging Success - Minimum Headspace http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/lid=12897/GunTechdetail/Gauging_Success___Minimum_Headspace_and_Maximum_COL The 243 & 308 have the same datum. I think Tsingleton is confused where the "Datum" is? Or i am confused?? Lock-N-Load® .400 Headspace Bushing

 

[savageshooter86]

I did size only with body die. It chambers smooth at 1.612. With the FL die at 1.611 it chambers with noticeable "stickiness"

Like I said 2x fired headspace at 1.614 is pretty much as tight of feel chambering as I would ever care for. So either of the above sizes should chamber smooth, but only the Redding body die does. And also note 1x and 2x fired cases measuring less than 1.613 chamber good, no sizing done to them.

Boyd thanks for the advice in our conversation

 

[lawrence97]

I tested my new Whidden dies and the included "shoulder bump" gauge on my once fired Lapua 284 win brass. My fired brass measured 1.803 with the included gauge and was easy to chamber. I resized it to a shoulder bump measurement of 1.8025 and it went into the chamber just as smooth. I am running a tight .313 neck 284 and I turn my brass to give me .004 clearance. Fired brass is .31025-.311 and after sizing and seating a bullet the round measures .308. My runout after sizing and seating is less than 1/2 a thousandth. So it seems that the dies match my chamber very well.

Let us know what you find out! and I will post my findings after sizing a whole batch of once fired brass. In my time reloading I have had an issue similar to yours with an early 6.5 Creedmoor chambering and the Hornady full length dies would give me the same problem you are having (Brass harder to chamber after resizing). I solved the issue by using a redding small base die.

The whidden dies might not be a compatible fit with your chamber or they could be out of spec.

 

[BoydAllen]

All in all, Hornady calling their case shoulder bump comparitor a "headspace gauge"" has caused a lot of reloaders to become confused. It is not a headspace gauge. They look like this. (scroll down to rimless case headspace gauges)http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/headspace/
The numbers that you generate with the Hornady gauge are not really significant, except as they allow you to compare the shoulder to head length of fired and sized brass, in order to accurately set a FL or shoulder bump die. The important thing is the difference in the numbers. If it is .002 then that is how much your die setting has set back, or bumped the shoulder from its fired length.

 

[243winxb]

The Hornady tool is a comparator. Boyd makes a good point.