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Neck sizing vs full case sizing

@K22 ; I think you did a very reasonable job of explaining the issue . I am a .308 TR shooter ; and I only bump my cases .001 , and have been for several years now . My Lapua Palma SRP cases are well over thirty reloads , and it appears they are beginning to "grow" in the neck by .002-.004 , in the last four or five reloads . I do anneal after every firing , and use a Whidden Custom F/L Bushing Die . Some are also , finally starting to loosen a bit in the pockets , also . Nothing lasts for ever . :(
 
IME, clearance is clearance when it comes to bolt lift issues. They are more commonly due to the case being too fat rather than too long. Just look at a couple of examples that intentionally are designed to have snug bolt closure on unfired brass, like any Ackley Improved or even a PPC. They go in snug but the bolt opens easily if everything else is right. Bump the shoulders back on old brass from another barrel and hard bolt lift is common, even if it was bumped back a few thou. If it's tight in the web, you'll get hard bolt lift, or click.

If bolt lift is hard from the start, it's either too long or way too hot. If the bolt rotates pretty freely until near the top of the stroke, then kinda snaps open and it clicks at the top of the stroke..that's not length, ime, but case diameter. That one is harder to fix long term but it too can be managed, to a degree.

That said, I bump more than a lot of BR shooters. I like at least .002", where some try for like a half thou. That can work but as the brass ages it becomes harder to maintain such consistency between pieces of brass, even from the same lot. The way I see it is, I'd rather have it all a tad loose opposed to having some tight and some loose. We might still be talking the same half thou difference but with all having some clearance rather than some that the stripped bolt drops on and some a bit snug. I think we sometimes outsmart ourselves, looking for an edge where it matters little, if at all. We must keep things in perspective here. If we move the shoulder .002", that's about half of what a human hair measures. I think that there are more important areas to spend our efforts improving upon, is all. Kinda like tight threads...Too tight can only cause problems and it gains ya nothing.

Just my 2 cents worth.
 
Stupid question here...When only neck sizing is it to be expected that the cases will not fit perfectly into the cartridge gauge? I am referring to 308 brand new brass, which I fired, so now once fired. Hornady 308 cartridge gauge. The cases I fully sized fit as if from factory. The ones I only neck size fit but are snug, and I have to tap them back out from the the other end.
Below a Wilson .308 gauge with a "FIRED" Lake City 7.62 case in it. And the case body diameter is keeping the case from dropping all the way into the gauge.

UPCvxyL.jpg


Below the same "FIRED" Lake City case in a JP Enterprise gauge that is closer to minimum SAAMI diameter.

zOVqgmU.jpg


This is a very common problem with drop in case gauges. Meaning you can not measure a fired case headspace length and know how much you are actually pushing the shoulder back.

Below with a Hornady cartridge case headspace gauge (comparator) you can measure a fired case and a resized case checking shoulder location.

OJqNmQH.jpg
 
Neck only sizing is an old method that most-- if not all--serious competition shooters have moved on from. Everyone I shoot with and know in LR BR bumps the shoulder.

The arguments we have are: do we bump shoulders .002" or .003"? Should we small base every time? Should neck clearance be .003" or .004"?

LR BR shooters make no compromises when it comes to the ultimate in accuracy at longer ranges. Yet over the years we have actually increased case to chamber clearance as our groups aggs continue to get smaller.

F-class shooters like to bump the shoulder as well. Don't even ask @Erik Cortina about neck-only sizing........ ;)
Erik loves serious neck sizing people!....
Love his T shirt!....
Wayne
 
IME, clearance is clearance when it comes to bolt lift issues. They are more commonly due to the case being too fat rather than too long. Just look at a couple of examples that intentionally are designed to have snug bolt closure on unfired brass, like any Ackley Improved or even a PPC. They go in snug but the bolt opens easily if everything else is right. Bump the shoulders back on old brass from another barrel and hard bolt lift is common, even if it was bumped back a few thou. If it's tight in the web, you'll get hard bolt lift, or click.

If bolt lift is hard from the start, it's either too long or way too hot. If the bolt rotates pretty freely until near the top of the stroke, then kinda snaps open and it clicks at the top of the stroke..that's not length, ime, but case diameter. That one is harder to fix long term but it too can be managed, to a degree.

That said, I bump more than a lot of BR shooters. I like at least .002", where some try for like a half thou. That can work but as the brass ages it becomes harder to maintain such consistency between pieces of brass, even from the same lot. The way I see it is, I'd rather have it all a tad loose opposed to having some tight and some loose. We might still be talking the same half thou difference but with all having some clearance rather than some that the stripped bolt drops on and some a bit snug. I think we sometimes outsmart ourselves, looking for an edge where it matters little, if at all. We must keep things in perspective here. If we move the shoulder .002", that's about half of what a human hair measures. I think that there are more important areas to spend our efforts improving upon, is all. Kinda like tight threads...Too tight can only cause problems and it gains ya nothing.

Just my 2 cents worth.
Full length resizing will fix that, at least it did for me on two rifles (M70 308 & Sav Target 243). I've gotten rid of all my "neck" dies and FL resize everything with bushing dies, bumping the should back about .002".
 
Stupid question here...When only neck sizing is it to be expected that the cases will not fit perfectly into the cartridge gauge? I am referring to 308 brand new brass, which I fired, so now once fired. Hornady 308 cartridge gauge. The cases I fully sized fit as if from factory. The ones I only neck size fit but are snug, and I have to tap them back out from the the other end.
Not necessarily expected but certainly possible due to Radial Expansion.
Assuming you wish to record/ measure base to shoulder data on fired cases I would use a different style of comparator or FL size
 
Back in June I put a new Shilen select match barrel in 280 Ackley Improved on one of my 700 actions.When I set the headspace,I wanted to stay close to the minimum.I had read about using a shim of some type on the go gauge to measure exactly how tight the headspace really is.I wound up with it set up what I feel is very close to what I wanted.The stripped bolt closes smoothly on the go gauge.I added a piece of .001 shim stock to the gauge and the bolt closes,but there's a noticeable difference in how smoothly it closes.I put a piece of .002 shim stock on and it won't close.I was using new Hornady 280 Rem brass and fire formed by jamming 140 grain spitzers about .015 to make sure there was as little slack as possible.
The first 50 or so rounds were sized with the only die I had at time,and it was a Lee collet style neck die I had when the rifle was a 280 Rem.I shot better groups doing it like that than I am getting at the present time.I'm using a Redding type S full length bushing die.When I set the die up for the rifle,I had to lightly bump the die with the shell holder.I'm thinking the die and the chamber dimensions are very well matched.The bolt feels the same if I use the neck die or if I full length resize with the bushing die.I experimented with it a little bit by using ten cases and neck sizing them.At the twelfth loading,they needed trimmed.In this particular instance,it would seem that neck sizing is the better choice.As an added bonus,I don't have to spend time wiping or tumbling the case lube off.My opinion is that the sizing technique may be something like different loads-some rifles like it and some don't.
 
This question is simple to me. If you shoot a factory of looser chamber like my 03a3, neck sizing works well. If your chamber is custom, you must FLR. The application converges to the mean chamber size. I do understand that this forum is dedicated to custom chambers but I do find the information both interesting and useful.
 
I regularly neck size, but it can bite you in the butt. Anecdotal evidence leads me to believe it works in factory chambers. Monday morning made a trip to the range with a non factory chambered rifle in 25-06, only to discover my rounds would not chamber. Grabbed the ammo for my son's factory rifle, so I was out of luck. Fortunately it is only a 10 minute trip to the range. Another neck sizing draw back could be galling the lugs on your action if you do not monitor and correct your sizing after a couple of firings and you try to force feed.
Is the lug galling because of too tight a fit at the shoulder to base? Also, I have some neck sized 243 AI cases that measure .002 to .003 longer at the shoulder than fired brass. Using Hornady heads pace comparator kit and Lee collet neck sizing die. OK, new to forums, just realized this post 4 years old
 
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Is the lug galling because of too tight a fit at the shoulder to base? Also, I have some neck sized 243 AI cases that measure .002 to .003 longer at the shoulder than fired brass. Using Hornady heads pace comparator kit and Lee collet neck sizing die. OK, new to forums, just realized this post 4 years old
No great sin here. Good information is timeless. Grease Your lugs properly and You won’t get galling. Fired cases 2 to 3 thou longer at the shoulder is not out of spec or unusual, they are simply fire formed from SAMMI spec to Your chamber. After Your rifle and a fired case cools, knock the primer out of a fired case and chamber it. How does it feel? If it won’t chamber, then You “have” to FL size it. If it chambers to Your satisfaction, You can Neck Size it and proceed. When You eventually find out You need to FL size Your cases, You can gradually adjust Your FL die down a little at a time until the case “just” fits in Your chamber. You don’t “have” to measure anything, unless You want to know the dimension. It is good to develop a good sense of “feel” because feel is important to accurate measurements. Serious competition shooters go far beyond these suggestions. Don’t over think it. Good Luck :)
 
No great sin here. Good information is timeless. Grease Your lugs properly and You won’t get galling. Fired cases 2 to 3 thou longer at the shoulder is not out of spec or unusual, they are simply fire formed from SAMMI spec to Your chamber. After Your rifle and a fired case cools, knock the primer out of a fired case and chamber it. How does it feel? If it won’t chamber, then You “have” to FL size it. If it chambers to Your satisfaction, You can Neck Size it and proceed. When You eventually find out You need to FL size Your cases, You can gradually adjust Your FL die down a little at a time until the case “just” fits in Your chamber. You don’t “have” to measure anything, unless You want to know the dimension. It is good to develop a good sense of “feel” because feel is important to accurate measurements. Serious competition shooters go far beyond these suggestions. Don’t over think it. Good Luck :)
Thanks Rat Rifle. I think the thing that threw me was that neck sized only rounds were longer than the fire formed rounds. Don't see anyway neck sizing could affect the shoulder. Wondering how they "grew" longer than the chamber.
 
Thanks Rat Rifle. I think the thing that threw me was that neck sized only rounds were longer than the fire formed rounds. Don't see anyway neck sizing could affect the shoulder. Wondering how they "grew" longer than the chamber.
Do Your Neck Sized Cases Chamber or not?
 

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