Neck Sizing or FL Sizing

[savageshooter86]

It looks to me like you have about .010 clearance on a loaded round, which indicates to me that you should sort brass for consistency of neck thickness, rather than turn, and that your collet die routine is the right one for your rifle. Have you tried different brands of brass to see how neck thickness and runout run?

can you tell me the reasoning behind this instead of turning so I can understand more

 

[BoydAllen]

Since your clearance is already on the high side, turning necks would probably be counterproductive. Years ago, using a pretty good .222, I determined that for my factory chamber, there was nothing to be gained in accuracy, by turning necks, and the increased expansion shortened brass life. If you want to tighten things up, and increase neck thickness uniformity, take a look at other brands of brass, Lapua, for one. Sometimes fellows try to ignore one issue, in favor of one that they would rather work on. There are some things that cannot be sidestepped, brass quality is one of them. Also, I would mention that when a friend started annealing (properly) his bullet seating force became more uniform, and his accuracy, and consistency went up, with factory chambers, and unturned necks. It may be that you could have the same advantages, with the brass that you are currently using.

 

[savageshooter86]

I thought about getting 100 cases of Lapua but haven't tried any yet. I read they are very uniform and high quality.

My WW brass now weighs 158.4-160.8 gr and my old lot of WW brass is around 154 and some even went up to 165!!! Not very consistant. Not sure how the neck thickness varies or the neck runout is on the WW brass.

So people turn necks to get clearance in the chamber correct?

 

[BoydAllen]

Some custom chambers require it. They will not allow a round to be chambered unless the neck has been turned.

 

[savageshooter86]

Ok took my Lee FL sizing die and took out the decapping rod/expander and sized a fired case. Neck measurement was .326" then seated a bullet and got .334". So that would mean it has .008 neck tension!!! That is alot


where my collet die was only .0015-.002" tension

So I believe this tells me the FL sizer I have now is overworking the brass

 

[quartermaster]

By not using the expander you have closed the neck and not opened it back up and yes that would be your neck tension if I am understanding you correctly. That's way too much.

There are a couple of ways to get proper neck tension depending on what tools you have. The simplest way is to take a cartridge with a bullet in it and measure the neck. Then size your neck during the loading process so that the outside neck measurement (without a bullet in it) is .001-.002 smaller. This should give you neck tension of .002-.003.

I have never used a collet die so, I don't want to attempt to explain to you how things are done with it. I will try to explain what I do with bushing dies and neck turning. I would take the measurement of my turned necks. Let's say they generally measure .013 all the way around as an example. If you are loading a 30 cal head, then you would add the bullet diameter (.308) and double the neck thickness (.026) which would give you a total of .334. If you desire .002 neck tension then I would use a bushing in my neck die which would measure and make my finished outside neck diameter .332.

I am not real good sometimes expressing myself in writing, so I hope you were able to understand.

A normal FL sizing die contracts your neck as the ram in your press goes up and the expander opens it up as the ram goes down giving you your neck tension which will vary case to case depending on your case wall thickness.

I have 3 rifles with tight neck chambers that I have to turn the necks to in order to get them to chamber. A loaded round will have .001 to .0015 all the way around between the neck and the chamber when I am done with my prep. A factory chamber is usually around .010 larger than the loaded round at the neck, hence not needing to turn the necks. I do anyhow, even if it is a skim turning to make them somewhat uniform in thickness. I feel this gives me uniform tension and bullet release, particularly using bushing dies. Many people say it's a waste of time turning necks for factory chambers. Probably any accuracy gain (if there is any ) is minumal enough to not be worth the effort. For me, reloading is fun and a labor of love and any chance to gain a bit of accuracy is worth the effort.

It is nice to see someone so energetic about learning reloading above the basics and want accuracy instead of saving money. There is a lot of smart people on this and other forums. I have gotten quite a few great tidbits of ideas reading them. Also the 6mmBR website, affiliated with this form, will be very informative. Check out Varmint Al's website also.

Take your time, be safe, and learn. You will find shooting more fun as your loads get more accurate and gain a lot of satisfaction as well.

Good luck QM

 

[savageshooter86]

QM: I was told that my FL die sizing that much of the neck then adding the expander/decapper to get it to proper neck tension is overworking the case neck pretty good. Like you said 0.008 is way too much. That is why I was looking at Forster die with honing option. They actually have different expander ball sizes and can custom size one.

I guess it is either the Redding Body Die in conjunction with the Collet Die or the Forster custom honed.

***I like to save money, but at same time I knew when I spent over $1500 to get the rifle how I wanted it I was gonna have to spend some money to maximize it's potential. ***

 

[quartermaster]

I have, nor will ever regret going with the Redding bushing and competition dies, Lord knows, I have a fortune tied up in them. I can't advise you on the collet die nor the Forster, as I have no experience with them. I think you might want to try taking all the guts out of yur FL die. You may be able to use that as your body die. I do that with mine all the time. I'm not sure what you have for a FL die.

If I remember right, I think you said you have Lapua brass. You will find that the necks will be fairly uniform with them. Load some up and fireform them. Then set the shoulder only back .001 and use your collet die to get .002 neck tension. That should get you some good concentricity so you can worry about load work up and not run out.

As I mentioned before, there is a lot of good info out there to read. Wish I knew more about the collet die process, but I don't.

Don't do anything that you don't thoroughly understand and know why you are doing it.

 

[savageshooter86]

using Winchester brass and FL sizing die is the Lee Precision FL sizer.

I did take internals out of the die and that is what was sizing the necks down too much. It was giving me 0.008 neck tension. 2 posts prior

Taking the expander/decapping rod out still sizes the body,neck,and shoulder?

 

[savagedasher]

my thoughts if the chamber is(round) and u shoot a cartridge at 50,000 psi normal brass springs back.005 1/2 or2/3 neck size to get seating pressure.
or full length and pushing squeezing what is better
Good shooting
Larry

 

[quartermaster]

When I take the guts out of my FL Redding type s die, there is nothing to squeeze the neck at all. The body of the case is sized and the shoulder can be set back. I guess you are just removing the expander. If it is a rifle for target shooting possibly until you get the tools you want, the cases may chamber without setting the shoulder back. If that is the case, then just use your collet die to attain the neck tension desired. You will only be able to get away with this for a few loadings and chambering will be a bit harder each time.

You can buy a Redding 3 die set and a few bushings and do your loading for this rifle with that method or use your collet dies set up, which I don't know enough about to advise you. If you have a good set up for your existing die set and lube the IS of the necks before running the expander through them, your runout may be acceptable. If it was me, I would buy a concentricity measuring tool first and use that to determine if you need to go to any alternate routes.

Somewhere in this process, you have to determine how much you want to spend on dies, tools, etc to get how much accuracy and control runout. Many people get great accuracy with standard 2 die sets using the proper procedures, but you won't get target and benchrest accuracy without precise measuring devices and reloading procedures. I guess it boils down to the the fact that you get out of it what you put into it. It depends on just how much accuracy you want. Most of us have started reloading with out Hornady, RCBS, or whatever basic 2 die set we could afford. Out tools, methods, and budgets have evolved when we discovered that there was better ways to meet our needs for accuracy.

I believe that I go a bit overboard, but I think by removing as many case variations as possible that I am getting all I can get. Keep us posted on your progress.

QM

 

[Erik Cortina]

Ok, read as much of this thread as I could.

You need a Redding Type "S" F/L sizing die, get a bushing .002" smaller than the diameter of the neck with a loaded bullet. If it has an expander ball remove it.

Consistency = accuracy. If you F/L size every time your brass will always be the same when going into your chamber, not so if you only neck size.

We don't turn necks to gain more clearance on a chamber, we turn necks to get neck wall consistency, and since the side effect is more neck clearance, then we start off with a tight neck. Boyd advised you to sort brass by neck wall thickness instead of turning, that's good advise since you already have too much neck clearance.

 

[Erik Cortina]

"Necksizing was a fad created by shooters that never learned how to properly full length size a case"

I beg to differ. I take the guts out of my FL die and set the shoulders back .001-.002 to assure chambering in my hunting rifles. My target rifle cases get set back when I feel undo resistance. My necks which have been turned to a uniform thickness when new are bushed down to attain desired neck tension. I never used collet dies, but I'm sure those that use them get the same effect. 90% + of my loaded cartridges have a bullet runout of .001 or less using this procedure.

FL size with an expander and check your runout before saying that we are too stupid to know how to FL size.

We have all evolved into doing things our way over the years. Don't knock anyones procedure until you have tried it.

No offense intended!

Those of us that know how to properly F/L size a case do not use expander balls. No offense intended! ;D

 

[FroggyOne2]

It is my understanding that originally, Redding bushing dies were designed to be used without a expander ball. If this is the case, why on earth do they come with them? I always take the expander ball off the the stem and when I deprime, I use a universal deprimming tool. I like to neck size, then body size. You have more control of how much of the neck gets sized, then the ammount the shoulder gets bumped back.

 

[Erik Cortina]

It is my understanding that originally, Redding bushing dies were designed to be used without a expander ball. If this is the case, why on earth do they come with them? I always take the expander ball off the the stem and when I deprime, I use a universal deprimming tool. I like to neck size, then body size. You have more control of how much of the neck gets sized, then the ammount the shoulder gets bumped back.

How do you have more control of how much the neck and body gets sized over a Type S F/L sizing die?

BTW, if you use two dies, you are supposed to size body first and then the neck.

 

[amlevin]

If you listen to all of us as far as what to buy, we can put you in the poor house pretty quickly.

But isn't that the object of the "game"? Where the one with the most gadgets, tools, dies, and reloading manuals, wins? 8) 8)

 

[amlevin]

It is my understanding that originally, Redding bushing dies were designed to be used without a expander ball. If this is the case, why on earth do they come with them? I always take the expander ball off the the stem and when I deprime, I use a universal deprimming tool. I like to neck size, then body size. You have more control of how much of the neck gets sized, then the ammount the shoulder gets bumped back.

Have you considered looking at the Forster Shoulder Bump/Neck Size Bushing die?

Does all what you describe in one operation. If your case neck thicknesses are uniform you're done. If they aren't then follow up with a mandrel expander die.

A real versatile die as you can even bushing size for minimal working of the brass, bump the shoulder, deprime, and with an optional expander ball make sure the case necks provide even tension. Since the expander ball on this die doesn't need to work the brass as much as on a conventional sizing die, they end up extremely straight. Standard dies using expander balls undersize the case way too much then push it back out causing the run out most experience using expander balls.

 

[BoydAllen]

A couple of things:

Although I am pretty sure that bushing dies were first intended for cases with turned necks, they can be used with unturned necks, and when they are, it turns out that picking a bushing that barely lets you feel the expander ball as it passes through the neck, can give more uniform neck IDs, and that small amount of expander work, and pull on the case does not make the cases more crooked.

Also, I think that the order of using dies is best determined with the aid of a concentricity gauge, for the particular application. For example, in one situation, with unturned brass (for a varmint rifle) I found that using a collet die first gave slightly better runout. This is not to say what the results would be if I had been using a bushing neck die, just reporting what happened. My varmint rifles all have factory barrels, and group well under a half inch, with tuned loads using unturned necks. I AM thinking of doing a test to see how annealing affects their grouping, just for fun.

 

[FroggyOne2]

Erik,

That is what my thinking was at least, I could be wrong in my thinking, I am no expert. But the way I see FL dies, leave me lacking rather seperate dies. I use both, but prefer the seperate neck and body dies. After all, it boils down on how confident I feel in my ammo, not how someone else perrcieves it. Would I be correct in my thinking?

Like the FL die I have for the 22BR sizes the case neck way too much. The Redding die with the bushing does not gown down far enough the neck for me. Minute differences in design on some dies I really don't care for. There are some things that I am looking at that could improved. But that is only me looking at it. And I really don't want to get into all of that, some of my ideas have to keep to myself right now.

Yes I have considered the Bushing Bump dies.

 

[savageshooter86]

Amlevin--I did consider the Forster bushing bump neck die but when I called Forster the tech recommended the Benchrest FL die and hone it. Said with the bushing bump die at some point would have to FL size when brass chambers beyond desired feel, and could achieve very similar results with the one FL die honed and do it all in one step. He also stated since I am not turning necks at this point, this route may be better option. Said the bushing bump die would be best if I turned necks. This is what somewhat got me thinking and started this thread.

BoydAllen-- like you said with getting bushing to barely feel expander ball, I am thinking if Forster die is honed close I can use the different size expander ball to get the felling you are talking about.

Awesome information from y'all!!! Much appreciated. I am wanting to learn instead of just doing what other people do and not understand why/how they do it