Neck Sizing or FL Sizing

[savageshooter86]

I am using this rifle to get into F-TR competition. Midrange to begin with until I get the hang of it and get good at reading conditions

 

[BoydAllen]

Actually, among the short range benchrest shooters that I know, the bushings may be from Wilson, but the dies that they are in are generally of the FL variety. This would include some world record holders and hall of fame members. Based on what I have observed, neck sizing for short range benchrest shooting has been out of style for a number of years.

 

[amlevin]

I am not a fan of neck sizing till they get tight (because they don' tall get tight at the same time, and mixing tight an looser enlarges groups significantly) combining collet with body dies is the only way to fly. The runout and consistency of bullet pull is outstanding.

I agree with this.

I've been a major fan of the Collet die for several years now but a "body die", not so much. I've found that using the Forster Neck Size/Shoulder Bump die with no bushing or depriming rod, then finishing the process with a collet die has given me some really straight cases.

This process has many paths, all of which seem to give results suitable to the shooter.

That's what makes this hobby as much fun as it is. There is no ONE way.

 

[savageshooter86]

I called Forster and the tech was telling me I could get a FL sizing die and they could hone it to .331 or .332 for me and that would be the only die I really needed. I guess that honing could be set to not work case necks minimally and could set to bump shoulder back 0.001" and do that everytime.

If I went this route how would I determine what size to tell them to hone it? How would I measure case necks to determine honing dimension?

 

[gotcha]

Next time you load several rounds measure neck diameters w/ bullets seated. You'll probabley get at least .001" variation measuring at two or three points radially. Personally, I'd hone to .0015" to .002" smaller than your average nk. diam. Keep in mind that the Forster die sizes the outside of the neck. So, seating pressure will vary w/ wall thickness. The LCD compresses the neck uniformly to the mandrel giving a consistent inside diameter. Hence, JO191145's advice on Redding "S" bushing die. Either way it would be a good idea to sort your brass by neck wall thickness to keep flyers to a min. You can chuck up a mandrel & using 600 grit wet or dry w/ oil easily reduce diameter by constantly checking dia. for progress. Go w/ light pressure 'til you get a feel for how quickly the sand paper is cutting. As Amlevin says there are many ways to skin a cat. We all tend to experiment & go w/ the method that feels right personally. If I can further help in any way just drop me a PM! Dale

 

[savageshooter86]

Thanks Dale. I guess I need to get a concentricity gauge that will allow me to measure runout and neck wall thickness and neck runout etc......

My neck avg with a bullet seated was 0.3332" and collet sized brass neck measured 0.3321" and the mandrel in the collet die I got .3055". All using a micrometer

 

[gotcha]

BOYD, Thanks for the response! Your logic works for me. Itty bitty groups to ya'........... Dale

 

[gotcha]

Savageshooter86, Just realized you're from JAWJA also. How 'bout them dogs? .............. WOOF WOOF. Drop me a PM w/ phone # if so disposed. I'd like to get into F-class also & yes I shoot Savages too. A little over 1 thou nk tension is pretty sweet.

 

[savageshooter86]

Ok maybe someone can help in here instead of opening an entire thread.

Someone mentioned if doing to Forster honed FL die I would have to turn necks? If I did get into that at some point how do I measure necks to see how much to turn them down and what do I use to measure the to see if it turned them enough?

 

[BoydAllen]

Measure the neck of some fired brass, and measure several loaded rounds all assembled from the brass that you plan on using for this project. Add a thousandth to your fired case diameter as a rough estimate of you chamber neck diameter. Work in the middle of the neck. Subtract the loaded round diameter from your estimated chamber diameter. This is your neck clearance. The reason that we need to know this is it will get larger if necks are turned, and if the clearance is already on the big size you may want to go another way. After making that determination, if the clearance leaves room to turn, you will need a complete neck turning setup (another whole thread), a 1" mic that reads to four places, and a neck mic. of the same accuracy. Technically you can get buy with out this last item but every time you want an accurate measurement of neck thickness you will have to measure and seat a bullet....a PITA. First find out what you chamber to loaded round neck clearance is. If it is large, you may want to skip the turning and size the ID of your die small enough so that the expander does just a little work in an unturned neck, and/or do a partial cleanup of the necks with the turner.

 

[savageshooter86]

great information Thanks for the help. When I measure using my Mic I do try to get the neck centered and try to do it same way each time. I guess if it varies very slightly(less than 0.001") that is probably difference in the neck thickness. I will measure fired cases tommorow and report back to see what might be the better route to go. This brass should be formed to my chamber since it will have been fired 4 times tommorow

 

[300 RUM]

Most of the mid and long range f-class shooters I know use Redding FL bushing dies set to minimally bump the shoulder, with a bushing that yields minimal neck tension. They do this each and every time.

I personally believe that using a properly adjusted FL bushing die, combined with annealing yields the best consistency possible. It's also simpler, which may be its most attractive attribute.
-nosualc

Yes sir, I shoot mid and long range F-T/R, Redding FL bushing dies set bump the shoulder back .0025. every time.

 

[savageshooter86]

OK measured 5 random cases I fired today. Necks consistently measured 0.3433". collect sized cases neck avg 0.3321" and seated bullets neck avg was 0.3332"

So this means I do not have a tight neck chamber and looks right on par with SAAMI specs

 

[STS]

Full lenght size every time and you will never run into a problem at the worse time.

Good words of advise. It really revolves around pressure. If you are shooting a low or modest pressure load you can neck size only then full length after several (3 or 4 or ? depends on several factors) firings. If you are working in the highest pressure range your brass will tolerate then you would be well advised to full length size every firing.

 

[BoydAllen]

It looks to me like you have about .010 clearance on a loaded round, which indicates to me that you should sort brass for consistency of neck thickness, rather than turn, and that your collet die routine is the right one for your rifle. Have you tried different brands of brass to see how neck thickness and runout run?

 

[quartermaster]

"Necksizing was a fad created by shooters that never learned how to properly full length size a case"

I beg to differ. I take the guts out of my FL die and set the shoulders back .001-.002 to assure chambering in my hunting rifles. My target rifle cases get set back when I feel undo resistance. My necks which have been turned to a uniform thickness when new are bushed down to attain desired neck tension. I never used collet dies, but I'm sure those that use them get the same effect. 90% + of my loaded cartridges have a bullet runout of .001 or less using this procedure.

FL size with an expander and check your runout before saying that we are too stupid to know how to FL size.

We have all evolved into doing things our way over the years. Don't knock anyones procedure until you have tried it.

No offense intended!

 

[savageshooter86]

I have not tried any other brand brass except WW

I also do not have a tool yet to check neck runout or thickness YET. Anyone have advice on what tool to get to measure what I am needing it to do?

Thanks

 

[quartermaster]

savage shooter, I admire your enthusiasm. Rome wasn't built in one day at least as far as I'm concerned. You on the other hand are certainly moving in the right direction. Unlike myself and probably most other members of this forum, whom started off spending monies on basic reloading dies and tools, and as we became more educated and interested in the reloading process managed to spend more on quality dies, guages and tools again.

You have the benefit of much good advise which can be realized by listening to many experienced people sharing their knowledge in this forum as well as other forums.

As long as you understand the complete reloading process, by all means get the right tools the first time which seems to be the direction you are heading.

As far as the concentricity device goes, I think that the Sinclair on is one of the best out there. I have the Redding neck measuring tool and that seems to work very well. Also I use their dies with great success.

If you listen to all of us as far as what to buy, we can put you in the poor house pretty quickly.

Good luck with your reloading learning curve. It is a fun hobby from which you will get a lot of pleasure and satisfaction. QM

 

[BoydAllen]

ditto..well said.

 

[savageshooter86]

QM thank you. I do appreciate the help from everyone on this site. Great people

I started off cheap and basice(LEE products) and been reloading a year and now got the itch to get into competition so just thinking about upgrading some of the tools. I recently(last week or so) am trying to understand more about neck turning and neck clearance, when it is needed and when it isn't. I determined my chamber is stock SAAMI spec chamber, so neck turning is not a must for brass to chamber. I use WW brass because it is cheap and what I have used for a year now.

I am trying learn about certain reloading practices and when to use them(benchrest, Fclass) and when they may be of no benefit(plinking/blasting ammo, close range hunting ammo.) I believe I am getting a better understanding of this for the most part