My new AMP Annealer

[jlow]

According to the manual from BenchSource, you are aiming for

What do you base that input from, that "the necks got to hot"?
How hot (maximum) do your necks get, when your shoulders are at your desired temp?
And how are you measuring those temperatures?
Accuracy wise, what have you found to be optimal temperature to anneal the necks and shoulders to?
What hardness is your finished product (based from your optimal desired temperatures)?

Your neck in that last upload shows above 900 degree F. FWIF, BenchSource says 650 degree F, Ken Light says between 750 to 800 degree F, and Giraud sas 750 degree F.

As to your questions about what I can do with my machine and the accuracy and hardless that results from it, I don’t think those are the right questions? The real question is what is the capability of the machine and whether you have the flexibility to adjust to get the results you desire. As long as the machine has the flexibility to allow the user to adjust the setting and the user has the skills to determine what is right for his cases, that is what you want. That does not mean that the first day you get the machine, you are going to know how best to set the torches, find the right temperature, but all those things are just like all the other tools we have for reloading, it’s for you to figure out for the specific type of shooting that you do.

What I am simply point out is based on the FLIR graphics that you have uploaded, the AMP is not annealing the necks and shoulder as evenly as I would like to see and I would expect a propane annealer can do better simply because I can change where the torches are pointing to and you cannot with the AMP.

One can argue all one wants to do that you are not sure what the exact temperature is, cannot measure it, and don’t know the hardness of the finish product, they all matter but there are ways around all those unknows, but if you are not and cannot annealing evenly, you are not at first base.

 

[dmoran]

Your neck in that last upload shows above 900 degree F. FWIF, BenchSource says 650 degree F, Ken Light says between 750 to 800 degree F, and Giraud sas 750 degree F.

Are you sure those are there recommend maximum neck temperatures, or are they recommended shoulder temps?
I asked for your maximum neck temperatures, since you claim AMPs reference image is to much.

One can argue all one wants to do that you are not sure what the exact temperature is, cannot measure it, and don’t know the hardness of the finish product, they all matter but there are ways around all those unknows, but if you are not and cannot annealing evenly, you are not at first base.

Are you?.... have you hardness or other type resultants proving you can?

I myself feel there is a lot of inconsistencies in flame annealing, particularly from one session to another, but also during long sessions (of like say +50 cases).

Saying all these things you claim, with out proof, leaves a lot of doubt. For instants: James shot a comparison test, and you expressed doubt because you didn't feel his test was adequate enough. Where is your test results? Where's your proof's to back up your claims, such as: AMP is not annealing the shoulder, or AMP is to hot on the neck, your at +1st base, and your annealing to a consistent hardness'. Sorry but speculation is simply just that, speculation with out proofs.

I'll back away from this thread, and leave you to continue on with highly speculated and unproven statements in your replies. Have a nice day...
Donovan

 

[jlow]

Are you sure those are there recommend maximum neck temperatures, or are they recommended shoulder temps?
I asked for your maximum neck temperatures, since you claim AMPs reference image is to much.



Are you?.... have you hardness or other type resultants proving you can?

I myself feel there is a lot of inconsistencies in flame annealing, particularly from one session to another, but also during long sessions (of like say +50 cases).

Saying all these things you claim, with out proof, leaves a lot of doubt. For instants: James shot a comparison test, and you expressed doubt because you didn't feel his test was adequate enough. Where is your test results? Where's your proof's to back up your claims, such as: AMP is not annealing the shoulder, or AMP is to hot on the neck, your at +1st base, and your annealing to a consistent hardness'. Sorry but speculation is simply just that, speculation with out proofs.

I'll back away from this thread, and leave you to continue on with highly speculated and unproven statements in your replies. Have a nice day...
Donovan

Donovan – I am disappointed. When I point out the potential down side of the AMP, I see it as an effort helping someone like you who is a potential customer. I am sure you are like me having earned your money the hard way and always want to avoid buying anything that does not do what you expect it to do.

NONE of what I said is set in stone, the idea is to point out potential questions that you might want to get answers to before you commit.

This whole idea that if someone points out a potential downside to a product is out to slam a product is just short sighted. If there was a problem with a product, don’t you want to find out. How does only positive feedback help you from that standpoint?

Like you, I too am going to give up saying anymore. I’ve tried to help and made my point. Since it is obviously not appreciated, I will not say anything anymore.

 

[Matt in Virginia]

Jeez... I'm glad the Wright brothers weren't depending upon some of you guys for encouragement. I haven't seen this much negativity and hostility toward something new since the epic Norma Dasher brass thread.

As is the case with most forward motion those who are on the forward edge DO NOT spend their time arguing with the jealous, or seem to be such, and/or those who are defending a previous purchase. No matter how well or poorly built, cheap or expensive, effective or destructive they may be. All of this is irrelevant.

The merits appear to be there, however, only time and early adopters will tell... Talking it to death gets so very little done. If only there were a squelch knob on the internet in general...

Regards, Matt.

 

[Matt P]

I hope all my competitors see this and are convinced as are some other that flame annealing is the best option.
Matt P

 

[Coolhand]

As is the case with most forward motion those who are on the forward edge DO NOT spend their time arguing with the jealous, or seem to be such, and/or those who are defending a previous purchase. No matter how well or poorly built, cheap or expensive, effective or destructive they may be. All of this is irrelevant.

The merits appear to be there, however, only time and early adopters will tell... Talking it to death gets so very little done. If only there were a squelch knob on the internet in general...

Regards, Matt.

Nothing like eloquence, to cut through the dross !

regards
Mike.

 

[sparky123321]

Wow! And I thought I was OCD. This is getting crazy. The AMP is an awesome piece of equipment, but far from the end all. Have Lapua, Norma or Nosler started using the AMP to anneal all their newly manufactured brass? I don't think so.

 

[Bob L.]

Wow! And I thought I was OCD. This is getting crazy. The AMP is an awesome piece of equipment, but far from the end all. Have Lapua, Norma or Nosler started using the AMP to anneal all their newly manufactured brass? I don't think so.

No, they probably don't, but I'll bet they do use induction heating. It sure would be nice to know what they target for hardness as well as the temperatures and times required to meet that hardness. That's all proprietary, I'm sure, though.

 

[jlow]

As is the case with most forward motion those who are on the forward edge DO NOT spend their time arguing with the jealous, or seem to be such, and/or those who are defending a previous purchase. No matter how well or poorly built, cheap or expensive, effective or destructive they may be. All of this is irrelevant.

The merits appear to be there, however, only time and early adopters will tell... Talking it to death gets so very little done. If only there were a squelch knob on the internet in general...

Regards, Matt.

Wow, that is pretty cynical... So if the guy with the older technology only post because they are jealousy and defensive, a more balanced cynic might think those with the new technology or thinking of buying the new technology are only out to defend their new tech or dreams???

So if neither group can be trusted to give unbiased feedback, who should we depend on to get information/feedback on new technology? Only those who don't have any of these machines? Or any experience with them?

 

[dmoran]

One of AMP's obvious missions is to have all cases anneal to a consistent hardness, no matter what the brand, metallurgy, neck thickness, case weight, or hardness. They have documented test results to hardness at many stages of annealing, as well as for non-annealed stages. They have tested (with results posted) to find optimal hardness levels that will produce the best accuracy and the best amount of annealment. By there request to the users to send them samples, so that they can hardness test it and anneal it, to then give the user back suggested settings to use and the attributing results, proves there commitment and dedication to aid in making annealing perfect.

What does your annealer mfg offer in similarity to aiding in making annealing perfect?
What hardness levels do they target as optimal?
How do they suggest to anneal a 0.012" neck wall verses a 0.013"?
How do they suggest to deal with one brand of brass to the next?
What do they offer for hardness resultants to annealing stages?
What do they offer for reference images of annealing while in progress?
How much experience does one need to run your brand of annealer with confidence that they are annealing to consistent hardness' from start to finish, and from session to session?

To this day, I have yet to see any other annealer mfg offer case study, lab resultants, user sample testing, or individual case setting suggestions to aid the end user individually, in there own quests to making annealing perfect, any where remotely near what AMP has and offers. "Annealing Made Perfect" is very befitting to AMP in my opinion.

In closing, I suggest to anyone wanting to learn or learn more about annealing, is to surf AMP's Website (www.ampannealing.com) no matter if your interested in there product or not. The information, pictures, video, studies, and resultants they have through out there website, is some of the best information to annealing, I have ever seen and learned from.
Donovan

 

[jlow]

One of AMP's obvious missions is to have all cases anneal to a consistent hardness, no matter what the brand, metallurgy, neck thickness, case weight, or hardness. They have documented test results to hardness at many stages of annealing, as well as for non-annealed stages. They have tested (with results posted) to find optimal hardness levels that will produce the best accuracy and the best amount of annealment. By there request to the users to send them samples, so that they can hardness test it and anneal it, to then give the user back suggested settings to use and the attributing results, proves there commitment and dedication to aid in making annealing perfect.

What does your annealer mfg offer in similarity to aiding in making annealing perfect?
What hardness levels do they target as optimal?
How do they suggest to anneal a 0.012" neck wall verses a 0.013"?
How do they suggest to deal with one brand of brass to the next?
What do they offer for hardness resultants to annealing stages?
What do they offer for reference images of annealing while in progress?
How much experience does one need to run your brand of annealer with confidence that they are annealing to consistent harness' from start to finish, and from session to session?

To this day, I have yet to see any other annealer mfg offer case study, lab resultants, user sample testing, or individual case setting suggestions to aid the end user individually, in there own quests to making annealing perfect, any where remotely near what AMP has and offers. "Annealing Made Perfect" is very befitting to AMP in my opinion.

In closing, I suggest to anyone wanting to learn or learn more about annealing, is to surf AMP's Website (www.ampannealing.com) no matter if your interested in there product or not. The information, pictures, video, studies, and resultants they have through out there website, is some of the best information to annealing, I have ever seen and learned from.
Donovan

So I guess you are back? The testing is nice but to answer my question of annealing the shoulders, I have read through their literature and the only thing I have found is they only talk about annealing the neck but no mention of the shoulder. If I I missed it, you should please point it out.

If they do testing, do they only do neck testing? So for those who are interested in annealing their cases neck and shoulder, how do they address this? Do they anneal the shoulder, and if so have you seen reports of shoulder harness testing of the shoulders.

Just asking question since you obviously have been working with them and knows all the answers.

 

[Mark Johnson]

I'm going to jump in and say I am really happy with my AMP as well. Yes it's expensive, lots of stuff in this game is pretty spendy. I didn't buy it to save money, preserve my brass, or anything else. I bought it because I thought it would provide more consistency and be easier to switch caliber to caliber.

I have used the benchsource and it is a great product. My only real issue with it was that I would have to adjust torches and re tempilaq cases when switching calibers, once it is set, I think consistency amongst the lot would be just fine. Regardless, I think there is a lot to be said for the work AMP is trying to do. Benchsource wanted to speed up the process and get the drill out of your hand, mission accomplished. AMP is trying to dial into exactly what this website is all about, I don't know how anyone on here could be arguing against a new company trying to improve our ability to shoot small groups.

 

[jlow]

I'm going to jump in and say I am really happy with my AMP as well. Yes it's expensive, lots of stuff in this game is pretty spendy. I didn't buy it to save money, preserve my brass, or anything else. I bought it because I thought it would provide more consistency and be easier to switch caliber to caliber.

I have used the benchsource and it is a great product. My only real issue with it was that I would have to adjust torches and re tempilaq cases when switching calibers, once it is set, I think consistency amongst the lot would be just fine. Regardless, I think there is a lot to be said for the work AMP is trying to do. Benchsource wanted to speed up the process and get the drill out of your hand, mission accomplished. AMP is trying to dial into exactly what this website is all about, I don't know how anyone on here could be arguing against a new company trying to improve our ability to shoot small groups.

So if the AMP give you a perfect neck anneal but does not anneal the shoulder and you cannot get a consistent shoulder bump you are OK with this?

As for “arguing against a new company trying to improve our ability to shoot small groups”, I would consider myself a potential customer despite the fact that I have a BenchSource. So you think I am actually doing something wrong trying to figure out if the AMP is actually better than the BenchSource by asking questions?

If I sold my BenchSource for a loss and spent a thousand dollars to get the AMP and then find out that it will not bump my shoulders (NOTE: this is a question at this point not a fact), that this is OK? So I should just stop asking questions and go forth blindly????

REALLY? Do you understand why I might be slightly unhappy with your statement and accusations?

 

[Matt in Virginia]

Like you, I too am going to give up saying anymore. I’ve tried to help and made my point. Since it is obviously not appreciated, I will not say anything anymore.

I knew that was too much to hope for...

Regards, Matt.

 

[dmoran]

It does anneal the shoulder folks. I realize we are supposed to just trust their numbers. But of course I tempilaqued some, and it's pretty darn even from the mouth to just onto the body.


Tom

Tom -
Did you "double-blind test" the tempilague? If not you may have pooched the results.......

Regardless, the ones you did for me were obvious to have annealed shoulders as well.
Donovan

 

[Mark Johnson]

So if the AMP give you a perfect neck anneal but does not anneal the shoulder and you cannot get a consistent shoulder bump you are OK with this?

As for “arguing against a new company trying to improve our ability to shoot small groups”, I would consider myself a potential customer despite the fact that I have a BenchSource. So you think I am actually doing something wrong trying to figure out if the AMP is actually better than the BenchSource by asking questions?

If I sold my BenchSource for a loss and spent a thousand dollars to get the AMP and then find out that it will not bump my shoulders (NOTE: this is a question at this point not a fact), that this is OK? So I should just stop asking questions and go forth blindly????

REALLY? Do you understand why I might be slightly unhappy with your statement and accusations?

I wasnt even replying to you specifically, if you are a potential customer with questions about the product, why don't you reach out to the manufacturers?

No I don't understand why you would be unhappy with my statement and at this point you are not contributing anything.

 

[sparky123321]

Not an AMP, but I love my Annie. I use the foot switch and have a fan blowing across the work area. I can run as much brass as I want as fast as I want, especially since no shell holder is needed. I also like that the cases are heated in the upright position and I can observe the heating process. Doesn't hurt that the Annie is half the price of the AMP. Don't get me wrong I'd happily spend the extra if I felt the return on investment was there.

 

[Mark Johnson]

Not an AMP, but I love my Annie. I use the foot switch and have a fan blowing across the work area. I can run as much brass as I want as fast as I want, especially since no shell holder is needed. I also like that the cases are heated in the upright position and I can observe the heating process. Doesn't hurt that the Annie is half the price of the AMP. Don't get me wrong I'd happily spend the extra if I felt the return on investment was there.

I have never used an Annie, how do you handle the brass without a shell holder, oven mitt? I intially thought the shell holder would be cumbersome but the brass comes out in to my cooling pan with a flick of the wrist, so I haven't really felt like that item was affecting my throughput. The couple of times I did touch the brass I really regretted it.

 

[Kyle Schultz]

... the brass comes out in to my cooling pan with a flick of the wrist, so I haven't really felt like that item was affecting my throughput. The couple of times I did touch the brass I really regretted it.

Amen to all that.

 

[sparky123321]

No oven mitt needed. Because you heat the brass neck up the heat doesn't travel very quickly towards the base as it does if heated base up. Even shorter cases like the .223 are easily handled bared handed. It's so quick without a case holder that the heat doesn't have a chance to spread to the rest of the case before it's already been dropped into a metal bucket. Total time for each case including picking up the case, annealing and dropping it into a bucket is probably 7-8 seconds, Now if you try to pick up a case out of the bucket before it's cooled off a bit that's a completely different story.