My new AMP Annealer

[jlow]

I'll call the gas a "wash", since the electricity to run an AMP isn't free either....lol

I was just afraid the "accountant" will get me again...

Sorry I only gave a rough guess as I thought you were only interested in a rough comparison between the BenchSource and the AMP. But if you are actually interested in the parts. These are the ones that I got:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001GSHSLE/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

2 of the above of course.. and

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00I8NS6Q6/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

The torches are these:

https://www.amazon.com/BernzOmatic-Basic-UL2317-Pencil-Propane/dp/B00008ZA0C/ref=sr_1_cc_7?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1469728733&sr=1-7-catcorr&keywords=benzomatic+torches

The gas tank I think you can figure out. I cannot take credit for figuring the above out as it was recommended to me by some kind soul on this website but they work.

 

[dmoran]

When I annealed with gas I would direct the torches right at the body and shoulder junction and allow the heat to run up to the necks. This method was told to me by several guys so that's the way I did it. The heat you see ran down the body never exceeded 300* as I had Templaq on the case in that area when setting it up. So there would be no danger in doing damage to the case.
The one thing I see different with the amp over gas is it directs all the heat right on the neck. I personally like to see some on the shoulder area where it helps assist in bumping the shoulders back more consistently.

James -
I'm inclined to believe the shoulder will also get annealed with the AMP.
Based from the information and operation pictures from there website:

Another aspect that I find intriguing with AMP, is there free service of laboratory hardness testing they offer (which could cost a lot to pay to have down). I don't believe any other annealer mfg offers such a service. That service can answer a lot of questions if one sends them approprite samples, and only have to endure the shipping.
Donovan

 

[highlife]

These were acetone then annealed with the Annie. I agree with Donovan on that the heat is still getting into the shoulder area.
Richard

 

[DJSBRS]

I received my AMP last night and when I got home I immediately opened it up and plugged it in. After thumbing thru th poles that came with it. I looked at the chart of settings I wrote down and began the process of annealing my BR brass and then onto my Dasher brass.

Here's what I found. Setup is quicker and easier than the torch method, the first piece of brass should be annealed identically to the last piece. No tweaking of torches to get the flame in the right spot. The time it took me to anneal 50 cases was less time than doing the same on my Bench Source.
The time it took to unscrew the insert from BR to Dasher was far less time needed than resetting torch heads. Adjusting the AMP from one cartridge (BR) to Dasher was just seconds.

The only downside I can see is not really knowing the temps to the necks are accurately within the temp range to anneal, we can only go by the engineers programming and testing in their laboratory and in all honesty I trust them over watered down templaq readings.

My final opinion on why I purchased the unit is consistency. I wanted my cases to be annealed the same each and every time I anneal them. You can just about guarantee this won't happen using torches. How critical is this? I have no idea. But it gives me peace of mind I've added another step of being consistent with my match loads.

For those that complained about handling each case, well loading them into any Annealer you're doing the same, so there's no Big deal on this as those complaining will always find a reason to complain. Again as I stated it took less time to anneal 50 cases using the AMP than it did with my Bench Source. Now don't get me wrong the Bench Source is a great machine and served me well and will serve others well also. David makes a very nice machine as with any of his other products. I myself wanted consistent annealing today and this time a year from today. This machine I do believe will achieve that.
Tomorrow I will be testing loads that's had brass annealed from both the Bench Source and the Amp and I'll see how the numbers compare between each.

You admittedly acknowledged you never became proficient in operating the Bench-Source machine. I dare say that no one has annealed more different and volume cartridge cases off a bench-Source machine than myself. Since I utilized the very first proto type of this machine, I have learned to be very proficient in setting up and operating to the maximum performance per hour.

I can switch flame position from a 6-PPC to a 338 Lapua in less than 8 seconds and set final temp setting within another 10 seconds. The key is knowing your equipment capabilities and being consistent in the changes.

I don't need codes to all the variables to operate this machine. I need to know how that specific batch of brass responds to 700º temps while turning so I can watch for split or holes in the necks. In less than 8 minutes, you can be finished annealing 100 pieces of brass when set up properly. All you need to do is adjust the required time for heat to achieve the final results.

Wonder how many codes I would have to use with an induction system when I receive all the different turned necks in for a PPC to 338 Lapua and manufactures?

The brass doesn't know the difference between gas or induction. I'll keep what makes my customers happy and return for professional service.

Point is, use what makes you confident.

Good luck on your analogy even though you already sold your Bench-Source machine.

DJ

DJ's Brass Service
djsbrass.com

 

[dmoran]

DJ -

I respect your reasons and your input very much.

As you stated your biggest demand is for quantity and speed. With that aspect along with your own very experienced proficiency I can see why the BenchSource system fits your needs and demands well.
Myself, I have no need of quantity and speed. Often I may be doing as few as 10 at one setting (and at times even less). And more then likely never more then 100 at one time. I haven't seen good repeatability in gas/flame setups without sacrificing a couple cases to get things up and going equal from session to session. For this reason, I see settings adjustable induction to being the better way to fulfill my own needs.

To each our own,
Donovan

 

[jlow]

You admittedly acknowledged you never became proficient in operating the Bench-Source machine. I dare say that no one has annealed more different and volume cartridge cases off a bench-Source machine than myself. Since I utilized the very first proto type of this machine, I have learned to be very proficient in setting up and operating to the maximum performance per hour.

I can switch flame position from a 6-PPC to a 338 Lapua in less than 8 seconds and set final temp setting within another 10 seconds. The key is knowing your equipment capabilities and being consistent in the changes.

I don't need codes to all the variables to operate this machine. I need to know how that specific batch of brass responds to 700º temps while turning so I can watch for split or holes in the necks. In less than 8 minutes, you can be finished annealing 100 pieces of brass when set up properly. All you need to do is adjust the required time for heat to achieve the final results.

Wonder how many codes I would have to use with an induction system when I receive all the different turned necks in for a PPC to 338 Lapua and manufactures?

The brass doesn't know the difference between gas or induction. I'll keep what makes my customers happy and return for professional service.

Point is, use what makes you confident.

Good luck on your analogy even though you already sold your Bench-Source machine.

DJ

DJ's Brass Service
djsbrass.com

I have used the BenchSource for a few years and although I am certainly not as proficient as DJSBRS, I also have considerable experience as I have annealed many batches of brass numbering in the thousands. He is basically correct in what he says.

Setup such as aiming the torches and setting the time is easy if you know what you are doing. I am sure I cannot do it as fast as him, but it is at best a few minutes for me. I can understand for some, this may be difficult only because they have not done it before or because they are not comfortable with technology and have not put in the time to learn. It’s a bit like me first time learning how to calibrate a GemPro 250, the first time probably took me 10 minutes but now it’s like 20 seconds.

I think there will always be a market for a machine that is plug and play and that is not all bad, however at least for some of us, being able to do this by ourselves gives us more options i.e. flexibility. For example, we can adjust where the annealing point is and we know exactly how to get a certain degree of annealing which can be different for different applications. It's like shooting factory ammunition vs. precision reloading.

I think the AMP theoretically can give a more consistent anneal between batches of bass (but not within any batch) since everything is programmed. But this really depends on your skills with the BenchSource. In the end as I have pointed out many pages ago, this may or may not show up in the final annealed product because as I have pointed out before, our brass is not perfect and as such, it will inject inconsistencies into the final product. So if the variation in the brass is greater than the variation caused by slight differences in the skill of the operator using a BenchSource, the difference may be moot.

The best way to test this would be to have a random batch of brass annealed with an AMP and also by an experienced BenchSource anneal like DJSBRS and then have the brass tested double-blind by a third party not associated with either machine.

In the end, I think really it may all be a moot point since I do believe that each machine has potentially a different market and whether one is better or not depends on the operator and his needs.

 

[Scott Harris]

Medicine has proven time and again that techniques (surgical procedures, drugs, etc) thought to be beneficial either had no effect or were actually harmful. The entire medical profession accepted these practices as the "gold standard." It took rigorous scientific testing to reveal these procedures and medicines for what they were....everyone was "convinced" they were good. Real advances come when the scientific method is applied to answer questions...something that you "could" also apply to your shooting hobby....or you could just swallow the latest marketing claims and new gee-wiz product.

Next to zero rigorous testing has been done on this new machine, so I have no idea why some of you guys are so confident with your answers. As mentioned before, I'm always interested in something that is truly better, but it is going to take more than a fancy price and marketing brochure to convince me. Double the price is not better. Having to pause annealing to let the machine cool down is not better. It also brings up the question of whether the machine will be consistent as it heats up. Also, no idea how long this machine will last...time will tell. So, there are definitely downsides to this new product. But, if it anneals cases even slightly better, I will gladly pay the price of entry! I have one being delivered and it will be thoroughly tested. If you see a slightly used unit for sale soon, then you will have received my test results. Either way, I'll be happy to share what we learn.

PS. Here is one of the tests I plan on running: let me know what you think.

1. Shooter 1 fires 20 shots in a row at 100 yards over a chronograph: alternating between 2 targets. Target 1 - benchsource brass, Target 2 - AMP brass. Everything else will be identical and the shooter will not know which brass is which (tester will load the cartridges so the shooter can't examine the brass and figure out how it was annealed.) We will do this test with four different rifles/shooters several times each across multiple days. This should remove bias from shooter fatigue/technique and weather conditions.

Group size and SD will be examined to determine statistical significance using a student's T-test

 

[DJSBRS]

DJ -

I respect your reasons and your input very much.

As you stated your biggest demand is for quantity and speed. With that aspect along with your own very experienced proficiency I can see why the BenchSource system fits your needs and demands well.
Myself, I have no need of quantity and speed. Often I may be doing as few as 10 at one setting (and at times even less). And more then likely never more then 100 at one time. I haven't seen good repeatability in gas/flame setups without sacrificing a couple cases to get things up and going equal from session to session. For this reason, I see settings adjustable induction to being the better way to fulfill my own needs.

To each our own,
Donovan

Good evening Donavan.

I just wanted to point out the Bench-Source unit is not outdated. It depends on the required or wanted application. I see your point on specialized application and agree with you.

I still have my Brass O Matic that I started with many years ago. But have never had the need to use it again. Not one failure with the Bench-Source since the "Jones clutch upgrade". LOL

I can not afford down time due to equipment failure due to the fact my customers desire quick turnaround time. it is not uncommon for me to do 1K Dasher or BRX cases and do anther 500 WSM and back to BR in the same morning.

No doubt the induction system works. It still has to be proven reliable, user friendly and cost effective to justify changing from the current systems on the market.

On another note, I have been swamped with thousands of Shiraz Norma Brass to be trimmed and turned.

Business is good and wishing you good shooting as well.

See you in September at the Nationals.

DJ

DJ's Brass Service

 

[jlow]

James -
I'm inclined to believe the shoulder will also get annealed with the AMP.
Based from the information and operation pictures from there website:

Another aspect that I find intriguing with AMP, is there free service of laboratory hardness testing they offer (which could cost a lot to pay to have down). I don't believe any other annealer mfg offers such a service. That service can answer a lot of questions if one sends them approprite samples, and only have to endure the shipping.
Donovan

Donovan - actually a picture is worth a thousand words. If you look at the color of the neck and shoulder, you can see how much hotter the ends of the necks are compared to the neck and should junction, and certainly much cooler where the shoulders are. So even if you assume the same thickness for all the surface visible, the necks are going to be more annealed and in fact depending on whether this was taken at the start, in the middle, or the end of the annealing cycle, the shoulders may in fact not be annealed at all. Remember annealing only happens when the brass reach a specific annealing temperature for the annealing period being used. Heating up a piece of brass and getting it tarnished looking does not mean it has been annealed. I unfortunately know this first hand from my own experimentation.

 

[dmoran]

Donovan - actually a picture is worth a thousand words. If you look at the color of the neck and shoulder, you can see how much hotter the ends of the necks are compared to the neck and should junction, and certainly much cooler where the shoulders are. So even if you assume the same thickness for all the surface visible, the necks are going to be more annealed and in fact depending on whether this was taken at the start, in the middle, or the end of the annealing cycle, the shoulders may in fact not be annealed at all. Remember annealing only happens when the brass reach a specific annealing temperature for the annealing period being used. Heating up a piece of brass and getting it tarnished looking does not mean it has been annealed. I unfortunately know this first hand from my own experimentation.

jlow -
Myself I see in that picture that the shoulder is red. And its red when the hottest part of the neck is only at 643.9-F. Maybe just me, but when I see red when annealing, it means that area is annealed.

Just had a friend (Tom) AMP anneal some of my brass for me. When I resized some of them it was obvious by the amount of shoulder bump that the shoulder on them had been annealed as well. They resized very consistent to each other (less then 1/2-thou) and bumped very easily and further compared to same brass that were not annealed with the same die setting. Haven't shot any of those yet, but will be next weekend at a IBS-1000 match(s). Not even going to test them prior, so it will be "hero or zero" with them.... lol
Donovan

 

[Coolhand]

Well the debate rages unabated I see ! I don't care, I have an AMP and its a beaut. I am about to acquire a pre 64 in .300 H&H 1960 model. Brass is expensive $2.00 a piece down here and I want it to last as is humanly possible. I reckon the AMP will do justice to Norma .300 H&H cases.
Here is a pic of some once fired ChesWinster .308 cases, cleaned de-primed. They look almost like new Lapua cases out of the box.

regards
Mike

 

[Coolhand]

And some once fired Lapua .308 cases annealed not 10 minutes ago.
Mike.

 

[Matt in Virginia]

I'm all for induction annealing I just don't feel the AMP is "the end all" or any better than many other methods out there. I currently use an Annie and prior to that a Bench Source. Both do an awesome job annealing brass and are faster than the AMP. As I've stated before, for $1,000 it would have to auto feed and not require shell holders or special collets.

Honestly, I'm guessing it won't be long before someone offers an auto feed induction annealer for around a grand. Actually, I believe Giraud already offers one, but you have to purchase the induction annealer separately. One thing I always liked about the Giraud and the Bench Source is how they rotate the case in the flame(s) or the induction unit.

http://www.giraudtool.com/annealer1.htm

fwiw,
I spoke to Giraud, or Mrs. Giraud, on the phone a month or two ago. I happened to inquire about the Single Unit Giraud Annealer that has been rumored, and she said the website was kind of out of date. I do not want to put words in anyone's mouth, however, she told me not to expect anything further than was currently available as far a induction annealer from Giraud. She said the party who owns the Annie has changed specifications and manufacturing and they(Giraud) had decided two years ago NOT to proceed with that project. Hence whatever is available is IT from them. It sounded like to me that was once suggested to be a great partnership led to a parting of the ways. Again not trying to speak for her, however, she was NOT hopeful or supportive of any further work between Giraud and the Annie...fwiw, imho, and afaik.

Regards, Matt.

 

[sparky123321]

Having used both and currently using induction my biggest concern is longevity. I never had that concern with my Bench Source. I love all this talk about "scientific calibration". It's a timer folks. Just like the Annie, Bench Source or the Giraud.

 

[Kyle Schultz]

Jeez... I'm glad the Wright brothers weren't depending upon some of you guys for encouragement. I haven't seen this much negativity and hostility toward something new since the epic Norma Dasher brass thread.

And people wonder why politics is so contentious. It's the culture we've created.

 

[jlow]

jlow -
Myself I see in that picture that the shoulder is red. And its red when the hottest part of the neck is only at 643.9-F. Maybe just me, but when I see red when annealing, it means that area is annealed.

Just had a friend (Tom) AMP anneal some of my brass for me. When I resized some of them it was obvious by the amount of shoulder bump that the shoulder on them had been annealed as well. They resized very consistent to each other (less then 1/2-thou) and bumped very easily and further compared to same brass that were not annealed with the same die setting. Haven't shot any of those yet, but will be next weekend at a IBS-1000 match(s). Not even going to test them prior, so it will be "hero or zero" with them.... lol
Donovan

OK, I see where the confusion is so let me explain what we are seeing.

First, that is not a color photograph of a case being annealed. It is actually a screen dump from a FLIR camera (you can see it actually says FLIR on the screen). FLIR stands for Forward Looking Infrared Radiometer. This is a high tech device developed by the military to see differences in temperature in the dark. The camera picks up infrared light from objects of different temperature and displays their difference using different color.

You can see this in the image I posted from the web of someone using a FLIR camera on a dog. The dog is the hottest object in the photo and so it is shown as the “hottest molten metal” color i.e. yellow. The dog of course was not really that hot.

So for the image you uploaded, you can see that it clearly states that the “Max” standing for maximum temperature was 643.9 degree F and the “Min” minimum temperature was 83.9 degree F. What the computer in the FLIR camera does is to use the spectrum of colors on the right to display the temperature in the image of the case neck and shoulder. These are what we call false color because they are not the true color of the object.

So for the sake of discussion, I have put a linear scale on that color band so that you can see what color correspond to what temperature. So for the shoulder where I put that white arrow, it corresponds to something like 370 degree which obviously is not annealing temperature.

The other thing you get from this is the heating is not even in the neck and shoulder. Heating is highest at the opening of the neck i.e. 623 degree and as you go from there to the shoulder, they are significantly cooler. The shoulders are clearly not being annealed. In fact the lower part of the neck which is dark yellow is something like 400 odd degrees which also is not annealing temperature.

 

[CJ6]

Not picking sides...But how/when was the pick taken? If it was inside the coil (I see no indication of a coil present), or if it was just after it was removed then the temps would clearly be cooler and not be an accurate representation of true annealing temps

 

[dmoran]

...

jlow -
Okay will just go with your distorted rationalism: the AMP doesn't anneal.... lol
Also see in your doggy picture comparison, that poor doggy most be +400-F (by AMP scale)
Heck, it's hotter then the shoulder. Someone get some ice for that poor doggy !.!.!


Back to the real world:
Here's the 2nd picture to that annealing sequence when the hottest point on the neck is at 960-F

 

[jlow]

jlow -
Okay will just go with your distorted rationalism: the AMP doesn't anneal.... lol
Also see in your doggy picture comparison, that poor doggy most be +400-F (by AMP scale)
Heck, it's hotter then the shoulder. Someone get some ice for that poor doggy !.!.!


Back to the real world:
Here's the 2nd picture to that annealing sequence when the hottest point on the neck is at 960-F

Donovan – “distorted rationalism” – LOL! The use of the dog picture was only because it was the only image I could find using Google, so don’t read too much into that.

About annealing the shoulder, yes, that is what I mean earlier when I said “So even if you assume the same thickness for all the surface visible, the necks are going to be more annealed and in fact depending on whether this was taken at the start, in the middle, or the end of the annealing cycle, the shoulders may in fact not be annealed at all.” In my post yesterday i.e. it was an earlier image and yes the shoulders got annealed.

But the point of uneven annealing still holds true, which is in your most recent image taken later when the shoulders got annealed, the neck got too hot.

The analogy is if I was doing a propane anneal, I point the two flames at the opening of the case neck and got the shoulder to start showing red but the case mouth is bright yellow red. Something that I would avoid as that might likely make it dead soft.

The point of any anneal is to make both the neck and the shoulder softer, to remove the work hardening from firing the round and working that area in sizing, and to make everything to the same degree of softness which is not too soft.

 

[dmoran]

....But the point of uneven annealing still holds true, which is in your most recent image taken later when the shoulders got annealed, the neck got too hot.

What do you base that input from, that "the necks got to hot"?
How hot (maximum) do your necks get, when your shoulders are at your desired temp?
And how are you measuring those temperatures?
Accuracy wise, what have you found to be optimal temperature to anneal the necks and shoulders to?
What hardness is your finished product (based from your optimal desired temperatures)?