My new AMP Annealer

[Phil]

IMO this is getting into a level of complexity that is unnecessary.

To confuse everyone further I am attaching a paper below about annealing .

Gee............Thanks Joe.......


Phil.

 

[Lbart]

Most of the books I've read, stress the point that trying to turn 1/4 MOA ammo into 1/8 MOA ammo is a waste of time because the environmentals make far more difference on where the bullet goes.
Joe

Don't believe everything you read in a book or the internet. The environmental's make a much bigger difference than 1/8th MoA, but every little bit helps when major championships are decided on X count in many cases. FC X ring at 1k = 5". 1/8MoA =1.25" or 25% of the X ring and that applies to both elev and windage. Keep in mind the scoring rings are widest at 3 to 9. Every little bit helps!

 

[Coolhand]

Coolhand – I’ve read the test before when we had a thread on this board months ago and I have looked at it again. There is absolutely NO indication to me that the test are fabricated/ or is BS and if you read my post above carefully, I have never said such a thing. The unit works and works well as far as I can see but the point here is does it work SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER than the traditional annealer, and work better to justify a 2x cost plus having to put up with having to put in each case by hand.

If you can see anywhere where an objective test was done that clearly and statistically show that the AMP is superior to a propane annealer (which is what I was trying to debunk in my post), I would love to see it. Please show us!

As to the fact that ANY annealer can produce a perfect anneal regardless of how it is done, let me show you why it CANNOT be done. I have a BenchSource annealer and I love it, but I can tell you that it too cannot do this – why?

The reason is simple, because there is two sides to an anneal, the machine and the brass. Unfortunately regardless of how good the annealer is, the brass we use is not consistent. Weight your brass and notice that even with Lapua, the weight is inconsistent. Inconsistent weight means some cases have more brass in it than others. More brass means more annealing time to get to a specific anneal and so if your case brass content is inconsistent, the annealer no matter how good cannot fix this.

I buy Lapua cases by the 500 count and weight sort them so that each batch I use is less than 1 grain different but that only decrease the problem not fix it. Even AMP clearly acknowledge this since they have different program setting for different makes of brass but their number does not take into account variation within manufacturer which we 100% know exists.

If you use a ball micrometer and measure neck thickness, yes even Lapua will have variation and this affects the anneal for the above reason. One may argue that one can turn the neck – true, but how does that fix the brass content variation at the shoulders?

What I am saying is all the expensive annealers (AMP, BenchSource, etc) out there are indeed very good and I would never anneal without them. But the idea that one is significantly better than the other keeping in mind what we call “noise” listed above exists, the fact that the AMP annealer is significantly better has NEVER been proven – That’s the point.

Jlow, good points all and well made ! My AMP ships this week some time and I have sold both of the propane units I built.

regards
Mike.

 

[3081FTR]

Coolhand – I’ve read the test before when we had a thread on this board months ago and I have looked at it again. There is absolutely NO indication to me that the test are fabricated/ or is BS and if you read my post above carefully, I have never said such a thing. The unit works and works well as far as I can see but the point here is does it work SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER than the traditional annealer, and work better to justify a 2x cost plus having to put up with having to put in each case by hand.

If you can see anywhere where an objective test was done that clearly and statistically show that the AMP is superior to a propane annealer (which is what I was trying to debunk in my post), I would love to see it. Please show us!

As to the fact that ANY annealer can produce a perfect anneal regardless of how it is done, let me show you why it CANNOT be done. I have a BenchSource annealer and I love it, but I can tell you that it too cannot do this – why?

The reason is simple, because there is two sides to an anneal, the machine and the brass. Unfortunately regardless of how good the annealer is, the brass we use is not consistent. Weight your brass and notice that even with Lapua, the weight is inconsistent. Inconsistent weight means some cases have more brass in it than others. More brass means more annealing time to get to a specific anneal and so if your case brass content is inconsistent, the annealer no matter how good cannot fix this.

I buy Lapua cases by the 500 count and weight sort them so that each batch I use is less than 1 grain different but that only decrease the problem not fix it. Even AMP clearly acknowledge this since they have different program setting for different makes of brass but their number does not take into account variation within manufacturer which we 100% know exists.

If you use a ball micrometer and measure neck thickness, yes even Lapua will have variation and this affects the anneal for the above reason. One may argue that one can turn the neck – true, but how does that fix the brass content variation at the shoulders?

What I am saying is all the expensive annealers (AMP, BenchSource, etc) out there are indeed very good and I would never anneal without them. But the idea that one is significantly better than the other keeping in mind what we call “noise” listed above exists, the fact that the AMP annealer is significantly better has NEVER been proven – That’s the point.

keep in mind that the OP never started off saying it produced better groups just a bunch of positives about its use in the environment - which interestingly are negatives associated with gas that have me looking at the AMP as well. There is a lot of information that is never empirically proven with respect to group size, often just a bunch of people saying - 'works for me'.

It might be twice the price to you but have you tried to get a benchsource into another country - twice the price is cheap.

I'm very pleased that there is choice out there and those that are happy with their gas annealers - well keep having at it, you're happy; just remember there is more to equipment selection than 'does it make groups smaller'.

I thank the OP and this site for the review - it greatly helps with making purchases

 

[jlow]

keep in mind that the OP never started off saying it produced better groups just a bunch of positives about its use in the environment - which interestingly are negatives associated with gas that have me looking at the AMP as well. There is a lot of information that is never empirically proven with respect to group size, often just a bunch of people saying - 'works for me'.

It might be twice the price to you but have you tried to get a benchsource into another country - twice the price is cheap.

I'm very pleased that there is choice out there and those that are happy with their gas annealers - well keep having at it, you're happy; just remember there is more to equipment selection than 'does it make groups smaller'.

I thank the OP and this site for the review - it greatly helps with making purchases

I personally have no problem with the material in the OP, but if you actually read the rest of the thread, you will see people who starts to claim that propane annealing does not do anything for accuracy but basically the AMP does.

If living down under means you can get the AMP for a good price relative to the BenchSource, knock yourself out, I’ve got no problem with that, just not the same for us.

 

[ridgeway]

jlow...I'm still waiting for the on target proof that the AMP is superior as others claim.

Annealing is anneaing...how you get there is personal preference.

Don't get me wrong...AMP is nice and anneals brass. Pricy, yes...but what new technology isn't?

On target advantage of AMP better, i don't see it. Id take my chances with 3 new barrel blanks and find the best shooting one..

 

[jlow]

jlow...I'm still waiting for the on target proof that the AMP is superior as others claim.

Annealing is anneaing...how you get there is personal preference.

Don't get me wrong...AMP is nice and anneals brass. Pricy, yes...but what new technology isn't?

On target advantage of AMP better, i don't see it. Id take my chances with 3 new barrel blanks and find the best shooting one..

Exactly! That's what I was looking for. Not bashing AMP in any sense, just want some real evidence for that 2x cost.

 

[6BRinNZ]

Exactly! That's what I was looking for. Not bashing AMP in any sense, just want some real evidence for that 2x cost.

do you have empirical evidence (on target) for hand annealing vs a benchsource?

 

[jlow]

do you have empirical evidence (on target) for hand annealing vs a benchsource?

Good point, but the reality is I am not trying selling a BenchSource as a product, if I was and want to claim that it was so much superior than hand annealing, I would need to do so.

 

[Coolhand]

I personally have no problem with the material in the OP, but if you actually read the rest of the thread, you will see people who starts to claim that propane annealing does not do anything for accuracy but basically the AMP does.

If living down under means you can get the AMP for a good price relative to the BenchSource, knock yourself out, I’ve got no problem with that, just not the same for us.

Jlow , propane works fine but I saw a better mousetrap and decided to invest, with the help of a buddy to go halves. Now I can't refute or confirm the statements that have been made that AMP does but others do not improve accuracy but it would seem that an awful lot of people have invested in an AMP, I do however intend to find out for myself.
And despite being down under I still had to pay in US Dollars and the freight to me was $20.00 more that to the US. AMP emailed this morning my unit shipped out today. Its only 3 hrs flying from NZ so maybe I might have it by Friday.
The reason I decided for the AMP, is logistics , apartment living is not conducive to open flame annealing. I built two propane units which worked exceptionally well, I gave one to my Gunsmith and sold the other to recover the cost of components. Now I don't have to pack up my kit and go find somewhere to open flame anneal.

Mike.

 

[sparky123321]

I've owned and used both the Annie induction and Bench Source flame annealers. Both work great, but I prefer the Annie due to the easy of setup. Just set the time and go. No torches to adjust and no wondering if I have propane. Don't get me wrong though. If my Annie doesn't hold up well long term, I'll be right back to the Bench Source.

I'm not knocking any method out there for annealing. Heck, I started annealing many years ago with the Hornady case holder setup, a single propane torch, a cordless screw driver and a digital timer and that worked just fine. The AMP looks like a fine piece of engineering, but it's not going to do anything better than many other annealers/methods do for much less money. Also, I hate getting into the additional expense and hassle of specific pilots and case holders for such a simple process.

I live by the "keep it simple(and fast)" adage and I know for a fact that I can anneal brass much faster and just as well with my Annie, or something similar, than you will on the AMP. For $1,000 the annealer would need to have a hopper and auto feed the brass before I'd even consider it. The Annie with the Giraud would do the trick, but the volume of annealing I do doesn't justify it. It takes me less than 10 seconds(5-7) per case using the Annie and that includes picking up the case, annealing it and dropping it into a bowl below the reloading bench.

Hey, whatever works for you though. I'm not even sure if the Annie is still being produced.

 

[Milo 2.0]

I'd imagine for guys set up to anneal, with whatever, buying this machine gets into a diminishing return thing for the money. I can see a lot of newer shooters buying it, and rightfully so, looks like they've done their homework in hardness tests.
When I first saw this machine advertised, it didn't have the capability to anneal the cases I shoot, but with software upgrades, it's getting better by the day. It's a matter of time before I own one, lol.

 

[jlow]

Jlow , propane works fine but I saw a better mousetrap and decided to invest, with the help of a buddy to go halves. Now I can't refute or confirm the statements that have been made that AMP does but others do not improve accuracy but it would seem that an awful lot of people have invested in an AMP, I do however intend to find out for myself.
And despite being down under I still had to pay in US Dollars and the freight to me was $20.00 more that to the US. AMP emailed this morning my unit shipped out today. Its only 3 hrs flying from NZ so maybe I might have it by Friday.
The reason I decided for the AMP, is logistics , apartment living is not conducive to open flame annealing. I built two propane units which worked exceptionally well, I gave one to my Gunsmith and sold the other to recover the cost of components. Now I don't have to pack up my kit and go find somewhere to open flame anneal.

Mike.

It really depends on what people think is the “right” thing to do in giving feedback. Speaking for myself, when I am looking to buy something, I do read what other people have to say. This does not mean I believe everything people say or even if they are accurate, always take their advice. This is because we all have potentially different NEEDS when we are looking for a product. Since our needs are different, the weighting of the pros and cons is different for different people. I DO find honest feedback even if the are negative useful as long as I know the reviewer is not out to just bash the product because it gives me both sides of the story. Most people will only give positive feedback, well that is useful only to certain degree as we always need to know what the cons are. As a fact, I usually look for the negative feedbacks first.

Specific to the AMP annealer, I can certainly see why a person who cannot work with an open flame in their dwelling or a difference in cost due to being in a different country, would find it extremely attractive, even if the cost is 2x of a BenchSource and anything I can say about why it cannot give a perfect anneal is certainly less important. However, this is likely not true for most annealers – thus the comment. In the end, this is why it is great to have choices and honest opinions.

 

[6BRinNZ]

I'd imagine for guys set up to anneal, with whatever, buying this machine gets into a diminishing return thing for the money. I can see a lot of newer shooters buying it, and rightfully so, looks like they've done their homework in hardness tests.
When I first saw this machine advertised, it didn't have the capability to anneal the cases I shoot, but with software upgrades, it's getting better by the day. It's a matter of time before I own one, lol.

Yeah agreed - one huge advantage that I am keen on is the kids can now do my annealing, my time has gone from several seconds to zero

 

[Lbart]

Yeah agreed - one huge advantage that I am keen on is the kids can now do my annealing, my time has gone from several seconds to zero

Train them well, those cases are pretty darn hot when they are taken out. I did a test on that

 

[6BRinNZ]

Train them well, those cases are pretty darn hot when they are taken out. I did a test on that

hee hee
yep teenagers, I have found they learn best through pain - never been keen to train teenagers on gas bottles and shrinking flames and all that stuff.

 

[Coolhand]

Train them well, those cases are pretty darn hot when they are taken out. I did a test on that

Gundogs and children ..... a little pain applied at the APPROPRIATE time works marvels !

Mike.

 

[Kyle Schultz]

Oh no... not another temptation.

Resistance is futile...

 

[JimPag]

The way I look at it annealing with a torch is a hit or miss proposition. Too much heat and the brass is ruined, too little and it does squat for the brass. There is no way you can duplicate one annealing session from the next with a BS the way you can with a AMP system. The way the AMP system works, torches are antiquated. The AMP IS a better mousetrap compared to using anything with a flame. I noticed that seating my bullets with my force measurement tool the numbers are a lot more consistent with my cases done in my AMP machine then they were with my BS machine, and that's no BS.

 

[Coolhand]

I have just discovered I have an addictive personality. I am digging through old storage boxes just on the off chance I might find some old brass to anneal ! I have already had one mate ask if I could do his 8 x 57 & 7 x 57 brass.
Mates rates = 1 Bot Glenlivet , casual acquaintances = 2 Bots Glenlivet.
Seriously, the AMP is the best bit of kit I have acquired since I bought a Lee hand loading set back in the '70's.

regards
Mike.