My new AMP Annealer

[Nude nut]

I withdrew my order for an amp and I regret doing so I opted fot a localy made annealer for a third of the cost here in oz as the amp was $1500 should of bought once and cried once.
But I will be reordering this year sometime for sure after talking to a local about his and hes been annealing for years from using lead to drill method then same set up as mine he then used his mates amp and ordered his soon after and has no regrets at all.

Cheers Trev.

 

[ridgeway]

I guess what I can't fathom is the price and for what? What real advantage does this has over anything else that's worth $1k? Keep in mind, annealing does not need to be exact and precise to get the same results. Take the heat away at the first hint of glow and go. I can see all the advantages and disadvantages, just stating my opinion and if you like spending $$$, go for it, lol.

 

[Coolhand]

I guess what I can't fathom is the price and for what? What real advantage does this has over anything else that's worth $1k? Keep in mind, annealing does not need to be exact and precise to get the same results. Take the heat away at the first hint of glow and go. I can see all the advantages and disadvantages, just stating my opinion and if you like spending $$$, go for it, lol.

Chuck I guess some of us appreciate the finesse and science of anything that relates to our hobbies and interests, not saying you don't but I don't quite agree with your comment that annealing does not have to be exact or precise to get the same results. All cartridge brass is not created equal and I appreciate the research the AMP guys have done to recognize this.I buy steel and lots of it, mostly stainless in grades most people will never see or use along will many precision bearings, bushes, sleeves etc , perhaps its an occupational hazard that has carried over to my hobbies but I like things to be precise and IMHO the AMP is as precise as I have seen.
You only have to read all the many and varied opinions of annealing on this forum to get an idea that perhaps there might just be a better method albeit expensive. Remember ; ones mans meat is another mans poison.

Mike
and I still have no affiliation with AMP !!

 

[ridgeway]

Yeah...you don't need to agree. I guess we can agree not to agree,lol. Show me on the target where absolute annealing precision makes a difference.

 

[Phil]

How long can you run the AMP annealer????

How many cases at a time can be annealed???


Phil.

 

[kcomeau10x]

How long can you run the AMP annealer????

How many cases at a time can be annealed???


Phil.

If you go to the website, they say how long and how many per cycle. The machine does have a cool down period that prevents continuous use. Basically, the larger the case, the fewer you can do before it needs to cool down.

 

[Phil]

I was just there and spotted this, around 200 cases if kept below a certain setting, thanks.


Phil.

 

[pressedRat]

its very nice and a lot of thought and analysis has been put into this device. having said that, i have a benchsource and i have been happy with how it works. obviously not as precise as this unit but at least for me good enough. for me the main difference in what i currently have and this unit is the benchsource is a bit easier to use. i set it up start it and feed it brass. this annealer requires a bit more work as you must remove and insert each piece. if this unit has some level of automation on par with the benchsource i would seriously consider it.

Also from reading this thread, i get the idea that you can only do so many cases then you must let it cool off. my normal process is to accumulate 300 to 500 pieces of brass (308, 260 and 6 dasher) tumble it all on one day and anneal the next. this machine seems a bit slower with some interruption of processing.

seems like i read somewhere that repeated heat cycling of the core wears out that part on other annealers. i wonder how this unit deals with that potential issue.

searching youtube i found an industrial case annealer, so perhaps some idea similar to that would be a nice addition.

 

[normmatzen]

I, too,looked at the AMP with longing eyes!
But, i think my Annie still is a very effective tool.

The price limits me as I had to think hard to justify the cost of my Annie! After using Annie for a year or so, I have found my bullet seating force stabilizing markedly. There doesn't seem to be any particular location within the core where the case neck has to be.
The electric power here is pretty stable so I think my power and heating time is also pretty stable. Actually, I have found similar
results with both 6BRX and 284 WIN cases with a 10% change in
time. I check every few cases with Tempelac.

Now, if some one was to gift me with an AMP ???

 

[Coolhand]

Worth the read here " brass hardness increased velocity AND pressure "
http://www.ampannealing.com/about-brass-hardness

The output inductor features a custom manufactured ferrite core with an air gap designed to focus magnetic fields. This means there is no work coil, and therefore nothing to burn out or need replacing. Because there is no work coil, there is also no need for water cooling.

Also worth the read, the first time I have read any hard data on annealing from actual cartridge brass studies.

http://www.ampannealing.com/repeatable-neck-hardness

Mike.

 

[Lou Murdica]

ridgeway

I test a lot in a controlled environment . A time back I tried some propane annealing units . I was never able to prove any accuracy improvement so I just stopped. I followed ampannealing at the shot show for about three years. When he started production I bought one . I have proven to myself a change in
Accuracy in both a six PPC which I shoot a lot of and in my f-class cartridges. The biggest thing you can see is when you resize your cases. If you have an accurate way of showing how much are bumping your shoulder in tenths they bump every time exact. The neck tension is exact. Another thing I noticed is standard deviation improvement.
Using a propane unit is like using open sites you're guessing you're close.
using ampannealing is like using a scope it's exact every time. You know exactly the hardness you're getting just by following the instructions .
Anybody that can afford one of these should buy one . The One's that can't should group by it.
People that know me know that I only tell it the way it is. That's my results and I'm still not done .

 

[Lbart]

For those who don’t know Lou he is a guy who knowledgeable people pay attention to when it comes to accurate shooting. If Lou believes in something you can take it to the bank!

 

[JamesnTN]

What's wait time on one and what kind of warranty do they come with? What's inside this unit that can and will go bad is my concern.

 

[Coolhand]

What's wait time on one and what kind of warranty do they come with? What's inside this unit that can and will go bad is my concern.

James , sometimes all that is required is a leap of faith !

And here is what you find on the WARRANTY PAGE.

Annealing Made Perfect warrant that the unit* will be free from defects in workmanship and materials for one year after the original purchase date.
For the period of the warranty, Annealing Made Perfect will repair any unit which proves to be defective in materials or workmanship at no cost to the customer, including shipping. In the event repair is not possible, we will either replace the unit or refund the full purchase price (not including shipping costs), whichever the customer prefers. If the unit is repaired and returned, 30 days will be added to the remaining warrant duration. If the unit is replaced, the warrant duration will be the longer of either the remaining warrant duration plus 30 days or 180 days.

Perhaps a read of the entire warranty section etc.
http://www.ampannealing.com/warranty

regards
Mike

 

[normmatzen]

"The output inductor features a custom manufactured ferrite core with an air gap designed to focus magnetic fields. This means there is no work coil, and therefore nothing to burn out or need replacing. Because there is no work coil, there is also no need for water cooling."

This is a quote from the comment above quoting some AMP marketing info. Their comment about not having a "work coil" is not completely true. Certainly, the case is not inserted into a coil (work coil) but there IS a secondary coil to generate the high current needed to impart a certain flux density into the Ferrite core. This coil may or may not be water cooled.

My Annie works the same way but the secondary coil is outside the box with its Ferrite gapped core visible. Same configuration. I don't use water cooling as the Annie has an internal fan that blows air over the terminal bloc where the secondary coil is fastened as well as the air flow passes over the external coil as well. I have not had my Annie shut down with up to 100 cases in a row. One of the originals I had did shut down after 20 cases, so they fixed that problem to my satisfaction!

I am not trying to denigrate the AMP, I think it is state of the art in annealing tools for the reloader! Really, what it is is an Annie with power control and programmable timing control for exact programming for a particular case.
My Annie requires ME to do the programming! And, I have found that for my 284 WIN I have two brands of cases and they both anneal differently! But, I can afford it! And, I am sure both the Annie and the AMP are way more consistent than un-pressure regulated gas flames.

 

[jlow]

I’ve read all the post here and frankly as far as I can see, it is all conjecture with no substantiated claims as it relates to how good it is and/or how much better it is to a propane annealer. The fact is any claims that the new induction annealer is better is not backed up by any testing that we have seen. It might in fact be better but at least for now, it is totally conjecture.

Now if some one would do a scientific test something like a hardness test (assuming they have a real idea what to look for there), I would be interested in reading about. Other than that, this is like most exotic reloading tool, sounds better, cost more, theoretically should be better, therefore it is better – No other proof needed.

 

[Joe R]

I’ve read all the post here and frankly as far as I can see, it is all conjecture with no substantiated claims as it relates to how good it is and/or how much better it is to a propane annealer. The fact is any claims that the new induction annealer is better is not backed up by any testing that we have seen. It might in fact be better but at least for now, it is totally conjecture.

Now if some one would do a scientific test something like a hardness test (assuming they have a real idea what to look for there), I would be interested in reading about. Other than that, this is like most exotic reloading tool, sounds better, cost more, theoretically should be better, therefore it is better – No other proof needed.

+1

 

[Coolhand]

Perhap

I’ve read all the post here and frankly as far as I can see, it is all conjecture with no substantiated claims as it relates to how good it is and/or how much better it is to a propane annealer. The fact is any claims that the new induction annealer is better is not backed up by any testing that we have seen. It might in fact be better but at least for now, it is totally conjecture.

Now if some one would do a scientific test something like a hardness test (assuming they have a real idea what to look for there), I would be interested in reading about. Other than that, this is like most exotic reloading tool, sounds better, cost more, theoretically should be better, therefore it is better – No other proof needed.

Perhaps a cursory read of the tests conducted made by AMP, easily found on their website may reveal the scientific research you crave Jlow.
But perhaps all those test claims have been fabricated and the tests conducted on donor brass by AMP are also BS.
Funny I read all the same objections on this site and others, leveled at other induction annealers when they were released for sale.
Yea Verily, we have built a better Ark, it is an induction Ark not a propane Ark , and the people were amazed and the populace gladly parted with their hard earned shekels and accepted the tenets on faith and faith alone.
And from the far south came another builder of Arks but he met with stern consternation WHAT another Ark how can this be? Is our Ark not better than any other Ark, verily I say unto thee charlatan from the deep south, get back from whence you came, your unproven doctrine is not welcome here, we do not accept faith of any persuasion!
If you had come to us with drawings and empirical data provided by Da Vinci ( do not tell the Pope ) we may let you play in our backyard!

Mike.

 

[jlow]

Perhap


Perhaps a cursory read of the tests conducted made by AMP, easily found on their website may reveal the scientific research you crave Jlow.
But perhaps all those test claims have been fabricated and the tests conducted on donor brass by AMP are also BS.
Funny I read all the same objections on this site and others, leveled at other induction annealers when they were released for sale.
Yea Verily, we have built a better Ark, it is an induction Ark not a propane Ark , and the people were amazed and the populace gladly parted with their hard earned shekels and accepted the tenets on faith and faith alone.
And from the far south came another builder of Arks but he met with stern consternation WHAT another Ark how can this be? Is our Ark not better than any other Ark, verily I say unto thee charlatan from the deep south, get back from whence you came, your unproven doctrine is not welcome here, we do not accept faith of any persuasion!
If you had come to us with drawings and empirical data provided by Da Vinci ( do not tell the Pope ) we may let you play in our backyard!

Mike.

Coolhand – I’ve read the test before when we had a thread on this board months ago and I have looked at it again. There is absolutely NO indication to me that the test are fabricated/ or is BS and if you read my post above carefully, I have never said such a thing. The unit works and works well as far as I can see but the point here is does it work SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER than the traditional annealer, and work better to justify a 2x cost plus having to put up with having to put in each case by hand.

If you can see anywhere where an objective test was done that clearly and statistically show that the AMP is superior to a propane annealer (which is what I was trying to debunk in my post), I would love to see it. Please show us!

As to the fact that ANY annealer can produce a perfect anneal regardless of how it is done, let me show you why it CANNOT be done. I have a BenchSource annealer and I love it, but I can tell you that it too cannot do this – why?

The reason is simple, because there is two sides to an anneal, the machine and the brass. Unfortunately regardless of how good the annealer is, the brass we use is not consistent. Weight your brass and notice that even with Lapua, the weight is inconsistent. Inconsistent weight means some cases have more brass in it than others. More brass means more annealing time to get to a specific anneal and so if your case brass content is inconsistent, the annealer no matter how good cannot fix this.

I buy Lapua cases by the 500 count and weight sort them so that each batch I use is less than 1 grain different but that only decrease the problem not fix it. Even AMP clearly acknowledge this since they have different program setting for different makes of brass but their number does not take into account variation within manufacturer which we 100% know exists.

If you use a ball micrometer and measure neck thickness, yes even Lapua will have variation and this affects the anneal for the above reason. One may argue that one can turn the neck – true, but how does that fix the brass content variation at the shoulders?

What I am saying is all the expensive annealers (AMP, BenchSource, etc) out there are indeed very good and I would never anneal without them. But the idea that one is significantly better than the other keeping in mind what we call “noise” listed above exists, the fact that the AMP annealer is significantly better has NEVER been proven – That’s the point.

 

[Joe R]

IMO this is getting into a level of complexity that is unnecessary. The purchase of an AMP machine is clearly a luxury. No one needs a machine to anneal brass. I'm glad people can afford it because it enables others to make an honest living.

Getting into in depth discussions about what is best or not is divisive and counterproductive. It also misses the point that annealing brass is not a precision thing, although it is done by people that are interested in precision ammo.

Does an AMP annealed case (versus a torch method) make it make a difference on target? Does it matter? Most of the books I've read, stress the point that trying to turn 1/4 MOA ammo into 1/8 MOA ammo is a waste of time because the environmentals make far more difference on where the bullet goes. So worry less about annealing and more about wind and mirage.

To confuse everyone further I am attaching a paper below about annealing .

Kindest regards,

Joe