My 1885 highwall (45-70 Govt) gets here Monday...
- Thread starter XTR
- Start date
wboggs
Gold $$ Contributor
A strong second to 45BPCR
I use Paul Jones mini groove 535s, Swiss 1 1/2. poly wads. Shoots less tha 1 min. groups. You can use smokeless in your hunting loads if you want. Get a hard cast bullet and be prepared for substantiall recoil as you run the velocity up. No need at all for jacketed bullets. A heavy 45 cast is more than you need. Also use a heavy crimp on your hunting loads and do not seat them in the rifling as we often do for silhouette. You may be chambering and unchambering multiple times in the field.
In any event, you are really going to enjoy the .45-70, one of the classics of all time.
I use Paul Jones mini groove 535s, Swiss 1 1/2. poly wads. Shoots less tha 1 min. groups. You can use smokeless in your hunting loads if you want. Get a hard cast bullet and be prepared for substantiall recoil as you run the velocity up. No need at all for jacketed bullets. A heavy 45 cast is more than you need. Also use a heavy crimp on your hunting loads and do not seat them in the rifling as we often do for silhouette. You may be chambering and unchambering multiple times in the field.
In any event, you are really going to enjoy the .45-70, one of the classics of all time.
XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
In the last few days I've burned up a lot of powder and fired a couple of hundred rounds, and met with much frustration.
To start load development I initially mounted an old (1980s) VariX-2 that I'd had on a hunting rifle long ago. This was from back when I didn't shoot rifles much and was into IPSC.
I have been loading with Rx7, H322, IMR3031, and Varget, after 2 days of really frustrating groups in the 2MOA range at 100 yds I finally noticed that I just could not adjust the parallax out of the scope no matter how hard I tried, it had .... 2 MOA of play, wow, OK. At the end of the day I fired a string pushing the parallax all the way to the right and holding on center, shot a 1.5 inch tall perfect vertical stack of 3 holes.
Tuesday my Leatherwood Malcolm 18" scope got delivered, I really wanted to use this scope. The scope performed as expected, the mounting system on the other hand is awful.
The mounts for the Win 1885 do not come with screws, the heads of the screws from the standard dovetails are too big to fit in the countersinks and they are too long. I used a set of screws from an old set of Leupold rings to mount them. The dovetail for the forward mount is far too loose in the dovetail on the barrel. No amount of tightening kept it from working loose. At that point careful inspection showed several thousandths of play under the dovetail (enough to see light through it) and it was bending the edge of the dovetail groove on the barrel.
The scope locking ring cannot be tightened enough to hold the scope under recoil of a 45-70. I highly recommend that anyone using the scope on a heavy recoil rifle get the system that is designed to allow the rings to slide.
The rifle this scope was mounted on is a hunting rifle and not a BPCR competition type rifle, so I’m not prepared to spend several hundred $$ more on a mounting system. I’ll just go with a modern scope even if it just looks out of place. So, I sent it back to SWFA today and I'm exvhanging it for a Swro with their version of a BDC reticle. If I load either 300s or 350s for hunting I can tune the load at between 2000 and 2100FPS they should line up pretty much exactly with the .5mil lines out to at least 200, and probably out to 300 though I never plan to hunt it beyond 200. It is going to have a 42mm obj, I really wanted something smaller but it looked like the best solution.
I'll probably pick up a tang sight to play with shooting cast bullets between now and next hunting season, no action on that front yet. I have shot a bunch of cast bullets, I can see me doing more of it.
I'm shooting F-TR for sure again this yr and planning to shoot an AR in service rifle so I time will be an issue. If one day I do decide to get into the BPCR thing I'll get a BPCR with a long barrel ,this one is only a 24.
One other thing, I love the rifle, I definitely see one in a modern caliber in my future.
Oh ya, the last few days of shooting nearly 100 rounds of full up hunting rounds and close to 100 405s at modern lever action levels I have a pretty healthy bruise on my shoulder.
To start load development I initially mounted an old (1980s) VariX-2 that I'd had on a hunting rifle long ago. This was from back when I didn't shoot rifles much and was into IPSC.
I have been loading with Rx7, H322, IMR3031, and Varget, after 2 days of really frustrating groups in the 2MOA range at 100 yds I finally noticed that I just could not adjust the parallax out of the scope no matter how hard I tried, it had .... 2 MOA of play, wow, OK. At the end of the day I fired a string pushing the parallax all the way to the right and holding on center, shot a 1.5 inch tall perfect vertical stack of 3 holes.
Tuesday my Leatherwood Malcolm 18" scope got delivered, I really wanted to use this scope. The scope performed as expected, the mounting system on the other hand is awful.
The mounts for the Win 1885 do not come with screws, the heads of the screws from the standard dovetails are too big to fit in the countersinks and they are too long. I used a set of screws from an old set of Leupold rings to mount them. The dovetail for the forward mount is far too loose in the dovetail on the barrel. No amount of tightening kept it from working loose. At that point careful inspection showed several thousandths of play under the dovetail (enough to see light through it) and it was bending the edge of the dovetail groove on the barrel.
The scope locking ring cannot be tightened enough to hold the scope under recoil of a 45-70. I highly recommend that anyone using the scope on a heavy recoil rifle get the system that is designed to allow the rings to slide.
The rifle this scope was mounted on is a hunting rifle and not a BPCR competition type rifle, so I’m not prepared to spend several hundred $$ more on a mounting system. I’ll just go with a modern scope even if it just looks out of place. So, I sent it back to SWFA today and I'm exvhanging it for a Swro with their version of a BDC reticle. If I load either 300s or 350s for hunting I can tune the load at between 2000 and 2100FPS they should line up pretty much exactly with the .5mil lines out to at least 200, and probably out to 300 though I never plan to hunt it beyond 200. It is going to have a 42mm obj, I really wanted something smaller but it looked like the best solution.
I'll probably pick up a tang sight to play with shooting cast bullets between now and next hunting season, no action on that front yet. I have shot a bunch of cast bullets, I can see me doing more of it.
I'm shooting F-TR for sure again this yr and planning to shoot an AR in service rifle so I time will be an issue. If one day I do decide to get into the BPCR thing I'll get a BPCR with a long barrel ,this one is only a 24.
One other thing, I love the rifle, I definitely see one in a modern caliber in my future.
Oh ya, the last few days of shooting nearly 100 rounds of full up hunting rounds and close to 100 405s at modern lever action levels I have a pretty healthy bruise on my shoulder.
wboggs
Gold $$ Contributor
XTR
Sorry to hear about your frustrations.
Chek with Burris for 1885 Hi-Wall bases and Signature Rings with inserts. That should eliminate shimming. I'm not sure why the scope is slipping so much on you. Something is definately wrong there. Mounts and rings are designed to stand more recoil than you have.
Call the Burris technical rep and I bet he can solve your problem.
Also, I do all the load development using a lead sled. Use lighter (much lighter) loads until you get the mounting problems worked out.
Don't dismiss the lead bullets for hunting. They have always worked better for me as long as you use a hard cast alloy that doesn't lead the bore up as you increase velocity.
Hang in there.
Bill
Sorry to hear about your frustrations.
Chek with Burris for 1885 Hi-Wall bases and Signature Rings with inserts. That should eliminate shimming. I'm not sure why the scope is slipping so much on you. Something is definately wrong there. Mounts and rings are designed to stand more recoil than you have.
Call the Burris technical rep and I bet he can solve your problem.
Also, I do all the load development using a lead sled. Use lighter (much lighter) loads until you get the mounting problems worked out.
Don't dismiss the lead bullets for hunting. They have always worked better for me as long as you use a hard cast alloy that doesn't lead the bore up as you increase velocity.
Hang in there.
Bill
XTR, If you are using an external adjustment scope, the scope must be fired free recoil. Pull them back into battery after each shot.
That Malcholm repro scope can be had with Unertl scope rings and bases. There used to be a dovetailed base that fit the standard sight dovetail. You may have to go to a gun show and sort through old sight bases to find one.
http://www.buffaloarms.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=164774&CAT=4100
This is a far better setup than the original style rings/adjustments that are available. I had an old Unertl small game scope on my 1874 Sharps. Outstanding performance firing 80GR. FFG and a 535 Gr. Postell out of a .45/70 case! No wad just compressed powder and a fairly soft bullet lubed with 50/50% Beeswax and Vasoline. An old time lube receipe that works great with Black Powder. Remember to clean your brass in hot soapy water also! They turn GREEN real quick
! Yes you can build a load like that using the modern .45/70 case, depending on the length of the freebore at the throat of your chamber. Have fun!
Greg
That Malcholm repro scope can be had with Unertl scope rings and bases. There used to be a dovetailed base that fit the standard sight dovetail. You may have to go to a gun show and sort through old sight bases to find one.
http://www.buffaloarms.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=164774&CAT=4100
This is a far better setup than the original style rings/adjustments that are available. I had an old Unertl small game scope on my 1874 Sharps. Outstanding performance firing 80GR. FFG and a 535 Gr. Postell out of a .45/70 case! No wad just compressed powder and a fairly soft bullet lubed with 50/50% Beeswax and Vasoline. An old time lube receipe that works great with Black Powder. Remember to clean your brass in hot soapy water also! They turn GREEN real quick
! Yes you can build a load like that using the modern .45/70 case, depending on the length of the freebore at the throat of your chamber. Have fun!Greg
PS, The manufacturer offers a "larger dovetail mount" for "oversized" dovetails. Please see, part way down the page; http://www.hi-luxoptics.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=37&Itemid=52
Greg
Greg
wboggs
Gold $$ Contributor
XTR
I am confused about the type mounting system and scope you are using. A modern internal adjustment scope with mounts or the external adjustment? I have used both on my rifle, a Leupold for hunting and a MVA for silhouette. The Leupold is much better for hunting.
Post the exact setup you are using and maybe we can get to the bottom of your problems.
I am confused about the type mounting system and scope you are using. A modern internal adjustment scope with mounts or the external adjustment? I have used both on my rifle, a Leupold for hunting and a MVA for silhouette. The Leupold is much better for hunting.
Post the exact setup you are using and maybe we can get to the bottom of your problems.
XTR,
I've tried it all with my Browning. I did spend time screwing around with smokless and modern scopes
Weaver makes 2 piece bases for the rifle. You may have to "adjust" the front one depending on your barrel countor. It'll require a file or shims.
I bet your rifle has a 1-20 twist barrel. The BPCR ones are 1-18.
You gonna want to shoot little bullets in a 1-20 like 405 Remingtons or 350 Hornaday rnd.
About 50 grains of 4198 and the Remington bullet or 50 grains of 4227 behind the Hornaday 350 will get your attention and shoot pretty well.
I "up" those loads in my 45-90 and won't list them here.
They will break scopes and mounts though.
Midway might still have the original tang sights for the BPCR guns.
These are the guys who made them.
http://www.advancemfgtech.com/
With Leatherwood you get what you pay for.
MVA makes much better, period correct scopes and mounts. The repeatability is there and thier stuff won't break under recoil
I'll help you any way I can.
Just Sayin,
45 bpcr
I've tried it all with my Browning. I did spend time screwing around with smokless and modern scopes
Weaver makes 2 piece bases for the rifle. You may have to "adjust" the front one depending on your barrel countor. It'll require a file or shims.
I bet your rifle has a 1-20 twist barrel. The BPCR ones are 1-18.
You gonna want to shoot little bullets in a 1-20 like 405 Remingtons or 350 Hornaday rnd.
About 50 grains of 4198 and the Remington bullet or 50 grains of 4227 behind the Hornaday 350 will get your attention and shoot pretty well.
I "up" those loads in my 45-90 and won't list them here.
They will break scopes and mounts though.
Midway might still have the original tang sights for the BPCR guns.
These are the guys who made them.
http://www.advancemfgtech.com/
With Leatherwood you get what you pay for.
MVA makes much better, period correct scopes and mounts. The repeatability is there and thier stuff won't break under recoil
I'll help you any way I can.
Just Sayin,
45 bpcr
XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
wboggs said:
So far I've run 3 setups and all have failed.
My first attempt was with a Bushnell DOA 250 off of my muzzle loader in Leupy rings. The DOA 250 is apparently not designed for the recoil of the full up 45-70 loads. The erector turret stopped clicking and started grinding. It seems to have recovered now, but I'm still going to send ti back to Bushnell.
My second setup was an old 4-12 Vari-X II (no positive clicks) that used to ride my 7mmRM on. I haven't used that 7mm since the early 90s, last year I took it to the range and discovered that the erector was tight to the point of stuck. It has lived in the back of my safe since then. Last week I freed it up with some lube and some force, mounted it and went to the range. This scope I found I could not adjust the parallax out of it no matter how I tried. No matter where I adjusted it at 100 yds the parallax would move the reticle in a two inch circle.
Both of those scopes were used while I waited for my Leatherwood Wm Malcom with external adjustments to show up. It was always my intent to use the external adjust ment scope. The front mount as provided by Leatherwood replaces the rear iron sight, it locked into the dovetail, but the dovetail part provided with the scope was not a good fit, and the screws from the manufacturer may as well have come from the drapery hangers in my house. Flat blade screwdriver screws. Yes, I know there are other mounts out there. I've considered getting a set of Unertl copies, but I'm not prepared to drop $400 to $500 on a mount for a $200 scope to put on a rifle really did buy to hunt and not to play BPCR games.
I sent the Leatherwood back to SWFA to exchange for a Swarovski with a BDC reticle. This one has a reticle with additional lines at .5, 1.0, and 1.5 mils below the main aiming point. I've already looked at JBM and I'm certain that I can make those line up very close with a 300 or 350 grain bullet for hunting. (1.5mil~5moa~10 inches at 200 yds, or at least w/i a minute of white tail lungs.)
So assuming SWFA does their thing like they should I'll be at the range next weekend doing load development again.
wboggs
Gold $$ Contributor
Your problems: Bushnell scope and recoil. Abandon it as you already have.
Leupold has a lifetime warranty and they will repair it.
Swarovski is high quality and should stand the recoil. I have used both Leupold and Zeiss on a .458 Lott with 500 grs. at 2300fps and a .416 Rigby with 400gr
at 2400fps and have had no problems. Have also shot both from a lead sled which stresses the system much more than free recoil. Be sure your rings are
tight or the scope will tend to slide in the rings.
Bases and rings. All high quality rings are up to the task. I assume you now have mounts. If not, call Burris. Lock tight bases.
External adjustment mounts and scope. If you want to use these, MVA is, unfortunately, the way to go. But the cost is very high. I have friends who have used
these for 1000's of rounds with 550 gr bullets in a .45-90 without failures. The problem with using these in a hunting sitaution is poor light in dark and dusk,
more limited eye relief in awkard positions you may encounter, and small reticles, dots which are difficult to see with poor light on animal targets. I was not
happy using this system in my 45-70 and went to a Leupold 2-8. No problems with that using 530 gr cast bullets.
Work on these and you will finally be happy. Keep us posted if problems arise, there are solutions .
Leupold has a lifetime warranty and they will repair it.
Swarovski is high quality and should stand the recoil. I have used both Leupold and Zeiss on a .458 Lott with 500 grs. at 2300fps and a .416 Rigby with 400gr
at 2400fps and have had no problems. Have also shot both from a lead sled which stresses the system much more than free recoil. Be sure your rings are
tight or the scope will tend to slide in the rings.
Bases and rings. All high quality rings are up to the task. I assume you now have mounts. If not, call Burris. Lock tight bases.
External adjustment mounts and scope. If you want to use these, MVA is, unfortunately, the way to go. But the cost is very high. I have friends who have used
these for 1000's of rounds with 550 gr bullets in a .45-90 without failures. The problem with using these in a hunting sitaution is poor light in dark and dusk,
more limited eye relief in awkard positions you may encounter, and small reticles, dots which are difficult to see with poor light on animal targets. I was not
happy using this system in my 45-70 and went to a Leupold 2-8. No problems with that using 530 gr cast bullets.
Work on these and you will finally be happy. Keep us posted if problems arise, there are solutions .
XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
Never ending technical stuff.
I went to the range today with my new Swaro Z3 mounted up.
I've read many times of people saying that the needed to shim the rear base on the standard Leupy mounts for the 1885. Add me to the lot. I could not even get a 100 yd zero, topped out I was still about 2.5 to 3 mils (about 10MOA) low. Looks like I need to put about a .040 shim under the rear base to get into the middle of the scopes range, though .020 should get me in there in good shape for most of what I want to shoot.
I was able to do some load work using the BRX reticle. Some things were good, others better and some loads were just unexplainable scatters. I did get a group of about 1.5MOA with 300gn HPs and 3031, not where I want to be yet, but better than what I'd seen so far.
Lead bullets on the other hand are still not working for me. Even with gas checks I think I need to slow them down more. High teens may be too much.
I went to the range today with my new Swaro Z3 mounted up.
I've read many times of people saying that the needed to shim the rear base on the standard Leupy mounts for the 1885. Add me to the lot. I could not even get a 100 yd zero, topped out I was still about 2.5 to 3 mils (about 10MOA) low. Looks like I need to put about a .040 shim under the rear base to get into the middle of the scopes range, though .020 should get me in there in good shape for most of what I want to shoot.
I was able to do some load work using the BRX reticle. Some things were good, others better and some loads were just unexplainable scatters. I did get a group of about 1.5MOA with 300gn HPs and 3031, not where I want to be yet, but better than what I'd seen so far.
Lead bullets on the other hand are still not working for me. Even with gas checks I think I need to slow them down more. High teens may be too much.
wboggs
Gold $$ Contributor
Be careful with the trigger jobs that reduce pull too much. I had one the became unsafe with wear. Went to the chicken line and the rifle went off as I closed the lever. Thought I must have touched the trigger. It did the same thing again on the turkets and I was sure of it when it happened the second time.
Stopped shooting for the day and replaced the sear, etc.
The design of the Browning trigger does not lent itself to a light pull and for some reason there are no after market repacements.
Stopped shooting for the day and replaced the sear, etc.
The design of the Browning trigger does not lent itself to a light pull and for some reason there are no after market repacements.
XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
I've done some more to try to get this rifle running.
I shimmed the rear base up .040 then bedded it with Devcon 10110. Basically I shimmed the front and rear of the base then bedded it between with the Devcon, the result is that I built a fitted shim from the devcon for the base to be torqued onto. Then I lapped the rings, no point in screwing up an expensive scope if I had things all out of aliment.. I was amazed, even with the rear up that much the lapping still ll took metal off of the rear of the front ring, I'm betting I could have gone up another .005 on the rear.
Obviously the specs for the rings aren't quite right for this rifle.
I don't usually lap rings, and I will say that is the smoothest scope fit I've ever felt.
One more thing I have found is that the chamber has no throat at all. I mean zip. I may end up getting it re-chambered. The only thing I can load to standard specs is a 300gn HP. Pretty much every thing else has to be .012 to .020 shorter than the SAAMI 2.550 to chamber and even then if you look it's jamming in to the lands, visible scrapes on the bullets.
I'm thinking that I need to have it re-chambered or see if my smith can at least throat it .100 so that I can seat though I don't know if he can do that and keep it true to the bore. I'm going to ask tomorrow.
I shimmed the rear base up .040 then bedded it with Devcon 10110. Basically I shimmed the front and rear of the base then bedded it between with the Devcon, the result is that I built a fitted shim from the devcon for the base to be torqued onto. Then I lapped the rings, no point in screwing up an expensive scope if I had things all out of aliment.. I was amazed, even with the rear up that much the lapping still ll took metal off of the rear of the front ring, I'm betting I could have gone up another .005 on the rear.
Obviously the specs for the rings aren't quite right for this rifle.
I don't usually lap rings, and I will say that is the smoothest scope fit I've ever felt.
One more thing I have found is that the chamber has no throat at all. I mean zip. I may end up getting it re-chambered. The only thing I can load to standard specs is a 300gn HP. Pretty much every thing else has to be .012 to .020 shorter than the SAAMI 2.550 to chamber and even then if you look it's jamming in to the lands, visible scrapes on the bullets.
I'm thinking that I need to have it re-chambered or see if my smith can at least throat it .100 so that I can seat though I don't know if he can do that and keep it true to the bore. I'm going to ask tomorrow.
XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
wboggs said:
It's not the front bands. I'll post up some pictures of some rounds where you can see the marks from the lands. I'm not experienced with shooting these big bores, but to me it's a ridiculous chamber cut from the factory.
My smith has a 45-70 reamer, I'm going to have him run it in till it touches w/o changing the headspace. It'll cost less than $100 and I'm betting that fixes the problem.
The first time I shot a cowboy rifle was a 45-110 at 250 meters hit the center of the bullseye with a sharps and set trigger. I went out and bought the browning 1885 highwall BPCR because the sharps is too nice to hunt with. The Browning shoots just as good but it is nice to have a set trigger. I shot a prairie dog at 300 yds and a nice white tail. This 45-70 I am confident with out to 800 yds. Simply amazing.
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