Most challenging powder for a primer to ignite ?
- Thread starter Hammer
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RegionRat
Gold $$ Contributor
Common ball powders in cold weather will hang fire.
ETA: got pulled away before I had a chance to elaborate.
H335, CFE223 are two examples that would be easy to demonstrate the hang fire in cold weather. The problem is very obvious to the shooter, and sometimes bad enough for the observers to observe.
ETA: got pulled away before I had a chance to elaborate.
H335, CFE223 are two examples that would be easy to demonstrate the hang fire in cold weather. The problem is very obvious to the shooter, and sometimes bad enough for the observers to observe.
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H335 and a Fed 205m sounds like a muzzleloader in my .17 Remington. A simple primer change fixed the problem.
Paul
Paul
In carrying ball powders in the military for 22 yrs and almost 50 yrs using them extensively in rifles and pistols, the only time Ive had a ball powder FTF was in a 454 and Western Powder attributed it to crimp. I've fired it down to 5 degrees and never an issue. I've issues with primers, but nothing I could blame on a ball powder. I should add, that 454 burned, it just didn't burn well
Lots of thngs can cause hangfires. Cold can congeal lube causing it to thicken and slow firing pin.Primers not quit seated all the way. Blocked flash hole on brass. Water inside brass from wet cleaning. Slow powder with a mild prime. A little too much headspace. You get the idea. And not all hangfires "hang" the same amout of time. A very short hangfire may not even be noticed. Combinations of different things can sometimes make it difficult to pinpoint the cause or causes.
Frank
Frank
The deterrents applied to the surface of the powders are harder to ignite and burn slower than nitrocellulose and herein lies the problem. The military requires that ball powders use magnum priming compounds to avoid the problems in colder temperatures.
I don't normally use ball powders but during the 2013 Shortage I used some Alliant Varmint in 223 and when I shot that load in 20 degree F weather there was a definite difference in report and recoil using Fed 205 primers. It convinced me that the magnum primer recommendation was probably a good one. I have never experienced any issues with single based extruded powders in either 223 or 308.
I don't normally use ball powders but during the 2013 Shortage I used some Alliant Varmint in 223 and when I shot that load in 20 degree F weather there was a definite difference in report and recoil using Fed 205 primers. It convinced me that the magnum primer recommendation was probably a good one. I have never experienced any issues with single based extruded powders in either 223 or 308.
RegionRat
Gold $$ Contributor
I have had similar luck as JRB with respect to eliminating the hang fire issue with the REM 7 1/2 and the #41 small rifle primers for the 223 situations with H335 and CFE223.
I can also corroborate his observations with the small rifle primers where he saw where the S&B, CCI BR4, CCI 450 etc., will hang fire in cold weather.
Because H335, and CFE223 are not flat with respect to temperature/velocity, I didn't bother to try and "cold weather tune" those loads for the primers I know will hang fire. I won't use them in cold weather so there is no point.
For curiosity, I did try to level up and tune for cold with the REM 7 1/2 primers and the #41 primers, and can say they came close to the warm weather performance, but had a still had a noisy SD/ES even if I matched the velocity average. I don't shoot ball powder pest control loads out past 300 - 400 yards, so I didn't do any distance tests.
These primers (REM 7 1/2, #41) are also the reason the DoD doesn't have the problem with mil-spec ammo that used ball powders. So the comments above are on point, but their velocity stats in cold weather are nothing to brag about. At typical combat distances or out of a SAW, it doesn't matter.
My personal issue is that coyotes and pests are not worth my REM 7 1/2 or #41, which are also more expensive and often difficult to find. As a result of needing to save those REM 7 1/2 for XTC and accuracy work, I just don't blow them on pests and varmints.
There are two observations I will make on the videos.
One, is that on the JRB video his problems start while using the VVN550 (a double base extruded powder) with the CCI 450, which is called a "Magnum" primer. This suggests the issue isn't limited to ball powders and that a "Magnum" primer isn't the cure either.
Two, I am sticking to my position that the unfortunate facts are hang fire problems are not difficult to demonstrate even without failures of the firing pin, contamination of the loads, etc., in so many words it isn't due to mistakes in getting contamination into the loads that shouldn't be there or problems with the cold weather performance of the weapon. Certain combinations of powder and primers will cause issues in cold weather, even without other mistakes or contamination.
This also leads me to suggest that primers called "Magnum" might imply they are recommended for their ability to take pressure but not necessarily for their ability to handle difficult or cold weather ignition.
If the weather gives me a break from fixing storm damage, I was planning to cold test some of the newer ball powders and a recent (post bankruptcy) batch of REM 7 1/2 . We just can't seem to catch a break here this year. YMMV
I can also corroborate his observations with the small rifle primers where he saw where the S&B, CCI BR4, CCI 450 etc., will hang fire in cold weather.
Because H335, and CFE223 are not flat with respect to temperature/velocity, I didn't bother to try and "cold weather tune" those loads for the primers I know will hang fire. I won't use them in cold weather so there is no point.
For curiosity, I did try to level up and tune for cold with the REM 7 1/2 primers and the #41 primers, and can say they came close to the warm weather performance, but had a still had a noisy SD/ES even if I matched the velocity average. I don't shoot ball powder pest control loads out past 300 - 400 yards, so I didn't do any distance tests.
These primers (REM 7 1/2, #41) are also the reason the DoD doesn't have the problem with mil-spec ammo that used ball powders. So the comments above are on point, but their velocity stats in cold weather are nothing to brag about. At typical combat distances or out of a SAW, it doesn't matter.
My personal issue is that coyotes and pests are not worth my REM 7 1/2 or #41, which are also more expensive and often difficult to find. As a result of needing to save those REM 7 1/2 for XTC and accuracy work, I just don't blow them on pests and varmints.
There are two observations I will make on the videos.
One, is that on the JRB video his problems start while using the VVN550 (a double base extruded powder) with the CCI 450, which is called a "Magnum" primer. This suggests the issue isn't limited to ball powders and that a "Magnum" primer isn't the cure either.
Two, I am sticking to my position that the unfortunate facts are hang fire problems are not difficult to demonstrate even without failures of the firing pin, contamination of the loads, etc., in so many words it isn't due to mistakes in getting contamination into the loads that shouldn't be there or problems with the cold weather performance of the weapon. Certain combinations of powder and primers will cause issues in cold weather, even without other mistakes or contamination.
This also leads me to suggest that primers called "Magnum" might imply they are recommended for their ability to take pressure but not necessarily for their ability to handle difficult or cold weather ignition.
If the weather gives me a break from fixing storm damage, I was planning to cold test some of the newer ball powders and a recent (post bankruptcy) batch of REM 7 1/2 . We just can't seem to catch a break here this year. YMMV
RegionRat
Gold $$ Contributor
The key word is #41.
For fun, try one of the other primers some time.
RegionRat
Gold $$ Contributor
In the JRB videos, he goes on to warm up some of the combinations that at first failed in cold, and they still failed. The important note there is that he used minimum charges of those powders, so he ascribed the failure to case fill.
I have never tried the very low case fill parameter cause it would never come up for me. I don't have an opinion on if the #41 and REM 7 1/2 would always set those off or not.
ETA: which all says you have to do your homework and test your combinations.
ETA2: forgot to mention a primer that will hang fire with ball powders in cold weather while still being very popular for accuracy in 223 heavy loads in normal weather, which is the Russian KVB (Wolf) primer.
I have never tried the very low case fill parameter cause it would never come up for me. I don't have an opinion on if the #41 and REM 7 1/2 would always set those off or not.
ETA: which all says you have to do your homework and test your combinations.
ETA2: forgot to mention a primer that will hang fire with ball powders in cold weather while still being very popular for accuracy in 223 heavy loads in normal weather, which is the Russian KVB (Wolf) primer.
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