More Forster FL sizing die weirdness

[thefitter]

This time the Forster FL sizing die tapered the neck. ???

The neck tension is correct but only at the top. There is a considerable taper from the shoulder to the top of the neck.

I pulled it apart and rechecked the manual. It seems right to me.

I think this die is possessed.

 

[RonAKA]

How much taper do you have?

 

[bozo699]

I swear fitter you better sell that Forster die before you pull all your hair out. Did you remove the expander?
Wayne.

 

[in2deep]

Does the shoulder exert extra pressure on the bottom of the neck and cause it to spring back a bit more than the unsupported upper portion?
I have noticed that if you measure too low on the neck.

 

[thefitter]

How much taper do you have?

Right at the shoulder and the neck = .3470

Right at the top of the neck = .3350 (which is perfect)

So that's = .0120 taper

 

[thefitter]

I swear fitter you better sell that Forster die before you pull all your hair out. Did you remove the expander?
Wayne.

No. And I went back in to make sure it was in the right position per the instructions.

I've also got somewhat of a visible ring 3mm from the top of the neck. That's what clued me to something being different. Thanks

 

[RonAKA]

It sounds like you may have an unsized portion of the neck near the shoulder. Didn't think that should happen with a FL die...

 

[BoydAllen]

If the die was made for unturned cases, it may be that they have taken into consideration that unturned necks are tapered, thinner at the top than at the bottom. Also, because the shoulder reinforces the bottom of the neck, less difference in sized neck diameter as compared to neck diameter above seated bullet shank is needed to produce the same amount of resistance to bullet seating at that point. Have you noticed that the typical SAAMI chamber print shows a tapered neck? I believe that they are done that way so that the clearance between the loaded round and the chamber will be more constant (with unturned necks) along the whole length of the neck. During the winter, when conditions do not favor shooting, "problems" such as this one, are more likely to arise.

 

[thefitter]

It sounds like you may have an unsized portion of the neck near the shoulder. Didn't think that should happen with a FL die...

Especially since it bumped the shoulder like I wanted.

 

[RonAKA]

Have you considered sending the die to Forster to hone out the neck so you don't have to use an expander ball, or just use the expander ball to do a very small final tweak? I believe it only costs $15 or so. At the same time you could ask them to check the die for out of tolerance taper. I would expect they would replace it, if defective before doing the hone job.

 

[bozo699]

fitter,
A few weeks back RonAKA and X500 helped me out with a problem, I was getting excessive runout and some taper. Out of my chamber my brass was showing less than .001 and usually less then .0005 but when I resized it .003-.007 runout. Found out a fired neck was .282 and I was sizing with a .269 bushing, my loaded round was .272, .012 was just to much to size all @ once, from the suggestions I got from X500 and Ron I sized in several steps with different sized bushings and also I relized if I sized 1/2 way then rotated the case 180 deg then finish resizing I was able to drop the runout to .001-.002 I figured that was just a bandage so I had my reamer reground, pulled my barrel and am in the process of rechambering. I know this isn't your exact problem but it may be something as simple as that. What kind of sizing lube are you using? and how much?
Wayne.

 

[thefitter]

fitter,
A few weeks back RonAKA and X500 helped me out with a problem, I was getting excessive runout and some taper. Out of my chamber my brass was showing less than .001 and usually less then .0005 but when I resized it .003-.007 runout. Found out a fired neck was .282 and I was sizing with a .269 bushing, my loaded round was .272, .012 was just to much to size all @ once, from the suggestions I got from X500 and Ron I sized in several steps with different sized bushings and also I relized if I sized 1/2 way then rotated the case 180 deg then finish resizing I was able to drop the runout to .001-.002 I figured that was just a bandage so I had my reamer reground, pulled my barrel and am in the process of rechambering. I know this isn't your exact problem but it may be something as simple as that. What kind of sizing lube are you using? and how much?


Wayne.

I'm going to take some measurements tomorrow. I have never really measured the neck on a fired case.

I'm using Sharp Shoot R Royal Case Sizing Lube. Just spray a tray of 50 at a time. Works well, no sticking and no dents.

 

[Shummy]

When looking inside the neck, do the marks caused from the expander continue down all the way to the shoulder? If so that would indicate that your necks are .006 thicker at the base and the expander ball has pushed the extra to the outside.

If this is the case, you could neck turn them to get the equal measurement that you desire and forever enjoy the resulting powder residue that will be present on the lower portion of the neck after "fixing" it. Been there done that. Personally I wouldn't change a thing as long as the sized rear dimension is smaller than the fired dimension.

If it doesn't and the OD of the base of the neck is sized to at least some small degree by comparing a fired case to a sized one, you have a partial neck size that is not overworking the brass. Which would be a desireable loading method especially if the boattail junction is being loaded out into the neck a ways.

If the base of the neck is not being resized .002 or so, I would send the dies and sized cases back to have them make it right, likely with a new die.

my 2c
Shummy

 

[hoverp]

As for me ...I run my final inside neck dimension off a mandrel. FL size it and then run a mandrel down it. less stress than a expander and more concentric IMHO. Sinclaire has carbide and SS and you can get a oversize expander mandreSS and chuck it up in a drill and emory cloth it down to your size.

I run 2 sizes on my unturned Norma brass. one for .0025 tension (carbide) for rapid SR rounds and one for .001 for loaded long soft seating (oversize turned down just a smidge.

works like a champ and since it is the final tool that touches your brass the ID of the neck is very consistant from the inside out and very straight.

I like it much better after switching from expanders.

For whatever its worth

 

[thefitter]

As for me ...I run my final inside neck dimension off a mandrel. FL size it and then run a mandrel down it. less stress than a expander and more concentric IMHO. Sinclaire has carbide and SS and you can get a oversize expander mandreSS and chuck it up in a drill and emory cloth it down to your size.

I run 2 sizes on my unturned Norma brass. one for .0025 tension (carbide) for rapid SR rounds and one for .001 for loaded long soft seating (oversize turned down just a smidge.

works like a champ and since it is the final tool that touches your brass the ID of the neck is very consistant from the inside out and very straight.

I like it much better after switching from expanders.

For whatever its worth

I like the sound of this.

Are these what you are referring to?

http://www.sinclairintl.com/.aspx/sid=63475/pid=36422/Product/SINCLAIR_CARBIDE_TURNING_MANDRELS_30_C

I have a Neilson Pumpkin Neck turning tool. I should check and see what that expander specs out at.

Will a turning mandrel fit in a expander die? Thanks

 

[bozo699]

fitter,
Yes those have to be the mandrels he is referring to and I have used this process also and it works ok but it is another process working the brass, I guess I just don't understand? Buy the expander mandrel and expand the n/k, lightly turn the necks now your necks should be concentric and brass thickness the same buy a bushing die with proper bushing for the neck tension you want and dont run a expander button or expander mandrel, less working of the brass and the loaded rounds should be more concentric.
Wayne.

 

[thefitter]

OK I see what you are saying.

I think what I will do is remove the expander ball and send in the FL die to Forster and have them hog it out to .335

After they do that I can dial it to bump the shoulder exactly .001. Then it's set perfectly (?) for when I want to FL size.

And I have a separate neck sizer for just sizing the necks.

Thanks

 

[hoverp]

Not my point. here is what I do. With the Norma brass necks are all very concentric and I do not need to turn them. Loaded measurement is .270. I buy the forester FL die and ask them to hone out the neck to my set squeeze measurement... for my 6XC .266,
REMOVE THE SIZER BUTTON OFF THE SPINDLE.
that gives me just the required squeeze on the fired case when I FL size ( I set the FL die to bump the shoulder .002 minimum for all brass regardless of SR or LR)

then after FL sizing WITH THE .266 fl DIE , I get .267 measured, .001 springback = .267 final, I run the 6mm carbide mandrel through, pause for about 5 seconds with the mandrel in the case neck and then remove the case...thats gives me about ..268 final measurement. or .002 tension for the LOADED measurement of .270.

For less neck tension FOR MY LONG RANGE ,I have taken the oversize expander mandrel and chucked it up in a drill and spun it with some emory cloth. I kept reducing the SS mandrel down to when after I ran the FL die and thren run the brass over the mandrel die I get about .001 or .269 prior to loading.

All this is very easy to do. The mandrel holder that Sinclair sells works great and the mandrel fits standard presses and the Forster Co Ax I use. All these procedures are detailed in the book Handloading for Cometition, by Glen zediker Great Book.

Also this works in my progressive RCBS 2000 as there are 5 positions and I just put the mandrel die with the carbide 6mm mandrel in it right after the FL die with no button in it. works great, i never have over .002 runout on any of my loads progressive or not.

 

[thefitter]

Not my point. here is what I do. With the Norma brass necks are all very concentric and I do not need to turn them. Loaded measurement is .270. I buy the forester FL die and ask them to hone out the neck to my set squeeze measurement... for my 6XC .266,
REMOVE THE SIZER BUTTON OFF THE SPINDLE.
that gives me just the required squeeze on the fired case when I FL size ( I set the FL die to bump the shoulder .002 minimum for all brass regardless of SR or LR)

then after FL sizing WITH THE .266 fl DIE , I get .267 measured, .001 springback = .267 final, I run the 6mm carbide mandrel through, pause for about 5 seconds with the mandrel in the case neck and then remove the case...thats gives me about ..268 final measurement. or .002 tension for the LOADED measurement of .270.

For less neck tension FOR MY LONG RANGE ,I have taken the oversize expander mandrel and chucked it up in a drill and spun it with some emory cloth. I kept reducing the SS mandrel down to when after I ran the FL die and thren run the brass over the mandrel die I get about .001 or .269 prior to loading.

All this is very easy to do. The mandrel holder that Sinclair sells works great and the mandrel fits standard presses and the Forster Co Ax I use. All these procedures are detailed in the book Handloading for Cometition, by Glen zediker Great Book.

Also this works in my progressive RCBS 2000 as there are 5 positions and I just put the mandrel die with the carbide 6mm mandrel in it right after the FL die with no button in it. works great, i never have over .002 runout on any of my loads progressive or not.

Does "spring back" change as the brass work hardens?

 

[bozo699]

Not my point. here is what I do. With the Norma brass necks are all very concentric and I do not need to turn them. Loaded measurement is .270. I buy the forester FL die and ask them to hone out the neck to my set squeeze measurement... for my 6XC .266,
REMOVE THE SIZER BUTTON OFF THE SPINDLE.
that gives me just the required squeeze on the fired case when I FL size ( I set the FL die to bump the shoulder .002 minimum for all brass regardless of SR or LR)

then after FL sizing WITH THE .266 fl DIE , I get .267 measured, .001 springback = .267 final, I run the 6mm carbide mandrel through, pause for about 5 seconds with the mandrel in the case neck and then remove the case...thats gives me about ..268 final measurement. or .002 tension for the LOADED measurement of .270.

For less neck tension FOR MY LONG RANGE ,I have taken the oversize expander mandrel and chucked it up in a drill and spun it with some emory cloth. I kept reducing the SS mandrel down to when after I ran the FL die and thren run the brass over the mandrel die I get about .001 or .269 prior to loading.

All this is very easy to do. The mandrel holder that Sinclair sells works great and the mandrel fits standard presses and the Forster Co Ax I use. All these procedures are detailed in the book Handloading for Cometition, by Glen zediker Great Book.

Also this works in my progressive RCBS 2000 as there are 5 positions and I just put the mandrel die with the carbide 6mm mandrel in it right after the FL die with no button in it. works great, i never have over .002 runout on any of my loads progressive or not.

MT6xc,
I don't understand the pause for 5 sec? what is the purpose of it?
Wayne.