More drama at the range...

[Damfino]

So I'm at my conveniently located public shooting range. It has a 50 and a 200 yard range. I'm on the 200 yard range trying to manage my expectations with a couple of young guys several benches down on my right sighting in their hunting rifles. Things seem to going well and during a lull they ask me if I would mind if they shoot a pistol they had. Unless it's a safety issue I usually try to have a live and let live attitude, sooo they quickly set up a target about 15 yards down range. They start shooting what looks to be a 9mm. I'm not paying that much attention but after a few shots one sounds very different, instead of a pop it's more like a "crump." I look over and the pistol appears to be locked open. After several minutes of struggling with it they look over at me, apparently being older makes me a firearms expert. At this point I certainly didn't want to disappoint. The young man hands me the Sig 320 that is locked open with what appears to be a piece of brass jammed in the chamber. I had flashlight and made sure it wasn't a loaded round then with a drop rod and a few "gentle but firm" taps the brass pops out and after disassembly the gun appears to be intact, with no barrel bulge, or any visible damage.

I looked at the piece of brass (pictured) and the rounds he had left. I asked the owner if these were factory ammunition or reloads? He said that he didn't know as someone had given him this ammunition. I advised against further shooting with the loads he had and suggested he have a qualified gunsmith check it out before shooting it again.

I tried to take pictures that might explain what happened because I can only guess. It looks like a piece of brass was in the barrel/chamber when the last round went off because it appears to me that one piece of brass is lodged inside another piece??? Sorry so long and worse yet I'm not sure there is enough information for this mystery to be solved, but I would be interested in any thoughts or explanations as to what happened.

 

[F Class John]

I’m sure I’ll get overruled on this but I bet he limp wristed it and then round fired out of battery??

 

[AccelR8]

My guess from the pictures is out of battery firing. I think it looks like the case ruptured all the way around and then was driven back around the case head.

 

[spclark]

Moral: do NOT shoot ammunition somebody else just 'gives' you... unless you know them well enough to trust them with your life.

 

[jr600yd]

I’m with you guys, out of battery

 

[Downhill]

Way out of battery!

 

[mike mccormick]

If the pistol will fire out of battery, it has serious issues.

 

[Rednexx]

I have to agree with out of battery, but I will add my 2 cents worth of whatever, I hesitate to say knowledge , however I think I have read and seen others having problems with Sig 320 pistols, so might be a combination , or some other kind of flustercluck. On second glance could it be a 9mm fired out of a 45 barrel installed in the 320 and by some chance of fate it actually went off?

 

[wedgy]

With the forests in CA closed for fires I have to go to a public range to finish up my new 6.5x47 load development, trajectory validation, and program the Kilo2400. I have to pay a $5 deposit for a 2'x4' x 3/4" schedule 40 PVC target frame that fits in the wood stand, when you bring it back you get your $5 back. Yesterday I shot 5 groups at 200yds from a dime to 2" in size but some yahoo spraying the place with an AR hit my frame and broke depriving me of my deposit. I showed the boss 20 empty cases and 20 bullets holes and got my $5 back but it took 15 minutes. A lot of people bowling 4 lanes over.
Today took it to a new level; 4 nice guys next to me speaking a foreign language(more like yelling, I have ear plugs & muffs and they are still loud) and they are 2 benches over because every other bench is closed for social distancing. They are going thru a bunch of big booming ammo and as I'm clearing out during the cease fire they try to drag the target holder in from 50 yards to 25 yards but the RSO says no. I'm packed up and figure I'll give them a hand when I hear the guy say "this time we are going to get on the paper" which is at 50 yards. So it's a Mark 5 .338-378 with a Swaro Z8 3.5-28x(about $3,000) with 2 sets of rings and they are well into their 3rd box of ammo, that's what was so loud. They wanted me to shoot it...NOPE, no way, I don't even want to be next to it. "Shoot at that clay on the 100 yard berm" he hits the ground at 50 yds and a foot left, I'm behind just eyeballing because I don't want to be in the blast wave. I adjust and tell him to shoot at the 200 yard berm, elevation is good but a bit left, I adjust and the next shot is 4 feet right. What ?? The 20 MOA rail is totally loose. ~$300 of Weatherby ammo down the drain...and they have 3 more rifles to sight in.
Also a few people couldn't even figure out how to unload their guns for the cease fire...
I can't wait for my range to reopen.

 

[sandwarrior]

So I'm at my conveniently located public shooting range. It has a 50 and a 200 yard range. I'm on the 200 yard range trying to manage my expectations with a couple of young guys several benches down on my right sighting in their hunting rifles. Things seem to going well and during a lull they ask me if I would mind if they shoot a pistol they had. Unless it's a safety issue I usually try to have a live and let live attitude, sooo they quickly set up a target about 15 yards down range. They start shooting what looks to be a 9mm. I'm not paying that much attention but after a few shots one sounds very different, instead of a pop it's more like a "crump." I look over and the pistol appears to be locked open. After several minutes of struggling with it they look over at me, apparently being older makes me a firearms expert. At this point I certainly didn't want to disappoint. The young man hands me the Sig 320 that is locked open with what appears to be a piece of brass jammed in the chamber. I had flashlight and made sure it wasn't a loaded round then with a drop rod and a few "gentle but firm" taps the brass pops out and after disassembly the gun appears to be intact, with no barrel bulge, or any visible damage.

I looked at the piece of brass (pictured) and the rounds he had left. I asked the owner if these were factory ammunition or reloads? He said that he didn't know as someone had given him this ammunition. I advised against further shooting with the loads he had and suggested he have a qualified gunsmith check it out before shooting it again.

I tried to take pictures that might explain what happened because I can only guess. It looks like a piece of brass was in the barrel/chamber when the last round went off because it appears to me that one piece of brass is lodged inside another piece??? Sorry so long and worse yet I'm not sure there is enough information for this mystery to be solved, but I would be interested in any thoughts or explanations as to what happened.

View attachment 1202162 View attachment 1202163 View attachment 1202164 View attachment 1202165

You may not claim to be an expert, but I'd say you did pretty good!

 

[Downeast]

Moral of story. Stay away from public ranges.

 

[1shot]

Reading these accounts makes me realize just how blessed I am. I am 64 and have never shot on a public range, with the exception of large matches. I have my own range, and belong to a private club so I've never had to deal with the morons that own firearms. All i can say is y'all have more patience than I do!
Stay safe out there,

Lloyd

 

[Texas10]

With the forests in CA closed for fires I have to go to a public range to finish up my new 6.5x47 load development, trajectory validation, and program the Kilo2400. I have to pay a $5 deposit for a 2'x4' x 3/4" schedule 40 PVC target frame that fits in the wood stand, when you bring it back you get you $5 back. Yesterday I shot 5 groups at 200yds from a dime to 2" in size but some yahoo spraying the place with an AR hit my frame and broke depriving me of my deposit. I showed the boss 20 empty cases and 20 bullets holes and got my $5 back but it took 15 minutes. A lot of people bowling 4 lanes over.
Today took it to a new level; 4 nice guys next to me speaking a foreign language(more like yelling, I have ear plugs & muffs and they are still loud) and they are 2 benches over because every other bench is closed for social distancing. They are going thru a bunch of big booming ammo and as I'm clearing out during the cease fire they try to drag the target holder in from 50 yards to 25 yards but the RSO says no. I'm packed up and figure I'll give them a hand when I hear the guy say "this time we are going to get on the paper" which is at 50 yards. So it's a Mark 5 .338-378 with a Swaro Z8 3.5-28x with 2 sets of rings and they are well into their 3rd box of ammo, that's what was so loud. They wanted me to shoot it...NOPE, no way, I don't even want to be next to it. "Shoot at that clay on the 100 yard berm" he hits the ground at 50 yds and a foot left, I'm behind just eyeballing because I don't want to be in the blast wave. I adjust and tell him to shoot at the 200 yard berm, elevation is good but a bit left, I adjust and the next shot is 4 feet right. What ?? The 20 MOA rail is totally loose. ~$300 of Weatherby ammo down the drain...and they have 3 more rifles to sight in.
Also a few people couldn't even figure out how to unload their guns for the cease fire...
I can't wait for my range to reopen.

That sounds to me like that's a range that won't be open much longer, unless it's 5 miles from the nearest road, building, or hiking trail. Clearly those two have no idea what they're doing, and possibly landing ricochets miles away. Very heavy projectiles leaving the range, and potentially traveling miles, what could possibly go wrong?

Where was the RO in all this?

 

[shoot4fun]

Striker fired pistols can be susceptible to the FOB failure. The striker's "hook" must be able to travel past the sear for the slide to be removed and most (M&P I know is an exception) require the trigger be pulled while the slide is basically OOB for disassembly.
While it could appear @Damfino is seeing something as he described I do think it is an FOB failure. While I've read a couple of accounts of errant 9MM rounds getting pushed up ahead of the chamber by a correct 40 S&W round and the disaster that followed and the fact I have had case head separations in a 9mm that left the case body in the chamber I will say this. The slightly rebated design of the 9mm would make it too difficult for the next round to allow the slide to be in battery enough for the pistol to fire. There just isn't that much room in any 9mm chamber.

 

[wedgy]

That sounds to me like that's a range that won't be open much longer, unless it's 5 miles from the nearest road, building, or hiking trail. Clearly those two have no idea what they're doing, and possibly landing ricochets miles away. Very heavy projectiles leaving the range, and potentially traveling miles, what could possibly go wrong?

Where was the RO in all this?

This is Angeles Shooting Range which is in the Angeles National Forest , one of the biggest ranges in LA County , so you can imagine all the weirdos dressed in black and camo taking video of each other. On one hand I am glad to see people involved in shooting BUT(and it's a big, hairy butt) they definitely need more train to master basic handling skills, etc.

 

[Damfino]

Striker fired pistols can be susceptible to the FOB failure. The striker's "hook" must be able to travel past the sear for the slide to be removed and most (M&P I know is an exception) require the trigger be pulled while the slide is basically OOB for disassembly.
While it could appear @Damfino is seeing something as he described I do think it is an FOB failure. While I've read a couple of accounts of errant 9MM rounds getting pushed up ahead of the chamber by a correct 40 S&W round and the disaster that followed and the fact I have had case head separations in a 9mm that left the case body in the chamber I will say this. The slightly rebated design of the 9mm would make it too difficult for the next round to allow the slide to be in battery enough for the pistol to fire. There just isn't that much room in any 9mm chamber.

This more and more seems like a certainty. My initial feeling when I first saw the ejected brass was that it looked like a case separation with some of the body left in the barrel as the next round was fired which drove the case bodies together. Because the origin and nature of the ammunition was suspect I tended to lay blame there. But I'm not that familiar with pistol cartridges or the Sig 320 so I didn't really want to speculate. This thread has been entertaining, enlightening, and helpful. You boys did not disappoint. Thanks!

 

[Rustytigwire]

Remember watching your kids learn how to walk? There is a large space between being helpful and self preservation. Public range is just that, anyone can go. Ours has no RSO. The ranger stops by to check license once in a while. My offer to those less experienced and in need of guidance is to recommend the hunter safety course or class at lgs. I tell them if they don't like it I will pay them back for it out of pocket. No takers yet. All we can offer is friendly helpful encouragement with extreme but polite caution.
I joined a private range and appreciate the rules. Take non shooters out for an introduction to proper rules and safety structure. Every bit helps.

 

[Bill K]

Agree, the round was out of battery and fired, the rim/base not being supported burst, causing this issue.

 

[kelbro]

Remember watching your kids learn how to walk? There is a large space between being helpful and self preservation. Public range is just that, anyone can go. Ours has no RSO. The ranger stops by to check license once in a while. My offer to those less experienced and in need of guidance is to recommend the hunter safety course or class at lgs. I tell them if they don't like it I will pay them back for it out of pocket. No takers yet. All we can offer is friendly helpful encouragement with extreme but polite caution.
I joined a private range and appreciate the rules. Take non shooters out for an introduction to proper rules and safety structure. Every bit helps.

Public range and no RSO? Nope.

 

[wkdickinson]

I belong to a small rural club of about 500 members. Last year a new rule was put into place requiring all members (both new and current) to complete a "range safety course". As you can imagine there was some grumbling from long time members about that, but still a good thing in my opinion and we all completed it.

The range does not have an RSO, other than for certain events where the public can come and shoot, such as rifle "Sight-In Days" before deer season (a fund raiser). I have volunteered a number of times to help with that event, what an eye opening experience that is! It is truly scary, how little many long time hunters know about safe gun handling or even how their own rifle works. Just an example - last year I had an older man show up with a Rem 742 "he hadn't shot in years", he wasn't sure if he had the right ammo (he did), didn't know how to load the magazine, didn't know where the safety was, didn't know how to unload the gun and wanted me to sight it in for him, because "he wasn't a very good shot". Yet he intended to go to camp and hunt - like I said, scary!