Moly fails to bond to bullet.

[NORZ]

I´m encountering an extremely perculiar problem when Moly-Coating .30 cal 208gr A-Max´s. The Moly just doesent seem to want to stick to them. Ok, it gets coated a bit, but the boat-tail base and junctions to the bearing surface dont want to take it! It also builds up in timy lumps that are very hard!

This isnt my first time Moly-Coating. I´ve plated thousands of various types and all have been given a fairly hard and consistent coating that goes on evenly and doesnt rub off easily.

Is there a chance that the Copper jacket on the A-Max´s is to hard or has been impregnated with somthing...... I´m just puzzled here ???

 

[GermanS1]

If the bearing surface itself is getting coated, then I wouldn't worry about the boat-tail since it doesn't make contact.

I wash the bullets with dishwashing soap, rinse thoroughly and air dry them before plating, that seems to remove all the residue that can hamper a good plating process. How are you prepping them?

Here's a short piece on my coating process: http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2009/09/moly-coating-salazar.html

 

[EricStecker]

It has been our experience that the inability to moly coat bullets is the result of lube or a film of some type on the bullet. One source of film on the bullets is the wax used in the moly coating process. If you get even a little bit of wax in your moly drum you will not be able to coat your bullets. In some cases this "film" (from any source) was not removeable by solvent.

We were successful in removing this film and coating problem bullets by putting the bullets in a tumbler with corn cob media. Do not use walnut shells since they have a natural oil that stays on the bullet which will also keep the moly from coating properly.

Frankly, this is the reason why we stopped moly coating other brands of bullets (back in the Phoenix shop). Having to run them through the corn cob was more common than we cared to deal with.

German knows what he is doing so his methods are definately worth reviewing. I've added our moly coating method as well.

Regards,
Eric

 

[NORZ]

I prep the bullets by rinsing them in IsoPropyl Alcohol or Aceton (Aceton is not an option since the polymer tip on the A-Max´s. I´m going to try to tumble them in un treated media as you suggested and rinse.

The moly I use is the finest grit and i´ve never had to wax them afterwards since it forms very consistent layer.

I just did a hardness test on 4 bullets but I´m lacking the specs on the jacket material to read anything into it.

I´m all over this, theyre going to get plated. All 2500 of them, even if I have spray them with Moly ;D

Thanks for your help.

 

[82boy]

I wash all my bullet in lacquer thiner. I have done thing with A-max and have not had a problem with the tips melting. (But I would test first) I usually wash them submerged for 5 minutes, with agitation. I then dry them in the sun, or under a hair dryer, then into the moly they go.

 

[fieldratsniper]

Dang...i may need to start washing my bullets some how before i coat them.

I had the same problem with some 224 amax's. i wrote hornady because i had never had this problem before. they said that the detergent may not have gotten bullets as clean is it usually does.

maybe if you contact their tech department as i did, they may take the matter more serious and start cleaning the bullets better before they ship them out. or they may just say, "if our customers want moly'd bullets, then they can buy them that way from us"....hahaha.

Jeremy

 

[brfun]

I wash all mine before mollying and have used everything from lacquer thinner to acetone to dish soap in an ultrasonic cleaner. They all work and I think its imperative that you wash the bullets before plating! also making sure thay are compleatly dry after washing.
Brian.

 

[Clark]

If I try to moly coat any Lead [Pb] tipped bullets, my media and bowl become Lead contaminated and will not moly coat bullets.

So I avoid them, and get poly carbonate tipped or hollow point bullets.

 

[fieldratsniper]

yes, the lyman kit says in the instructions that it is not recommended to moly coat lead spitzer bullets for that reason....

If I try to moly coat any Lead [Pb] tipped bullets, my media and bowl become Lead contaminated and will not moly coat bullets.

So I avoid them, and get poly carbonate tipped or hollow point bullets.

 

[flatlander]

I finally switched from moly to HBN - after 14yrs. of moly'ing & waxing every bullet I bought. I'd run into problems with my NECO kit - something contaminated both the steel shot & RCBS Sidewinder drum I'd been using, and no matter how much prep work I did on bullets, I couldn't get a decent coat of moly applied. Switched to the pill bottle method, and things went fine after that.

I guess the waxing step is what finally burned me out on moly - I used an electric paint stripping gun to heat both the waxing shot & bullets, so running several consecutive batches was far more effecient than getting everything warmed up for a single or just a few batches. After spending hours doing the whole season's supply of bullets in one session (over 7000 each time) the last couple of years, my resolve to moly finally crapped-out.

Now when I receive a bullet order, it's a simple matter to put them in pill bottles with HBN, vibrate for 1 to 1-1/2 hrs, dump them on an old towel to remove excess leftover HBN, then but them back in their boxes. I'm not seeing any more copper or carbon fouling with HBN than I did with moly. The other plus is that I can shoot a mix of moly'd & HBN-coated bullets, and have yet to see any settling or unusual fouling problems as a result.

 

[fieldratsniper]

can you give more info on HBN. ive never heard of it. and please post some pics of your process.

thanks,
Jeremy

 

[flatlander]

Jeremy, HBN= hexagonal boron nitride, which has some friction-reducing properties superior to moly. Not sure whether David Tubb was the first to use HBN or not, but when he stopped offering his DTAC 115s in moly'd form, and instead went with HBN, I started looking into it.

Even though Tubb has stated that his application methods can't be duplicated at home using 'the usual handloader equipment', I've had good results by simply dumping bullets into a clean pill bottle, adding HBN, screwing the lid on tightly, and securing it with packing tape. I leave enough room in the bottle for the bullets to move around a bit so that there will be enough impact between bullets to get a good coat of HBN established. It doesn't take a lot of HBN per bottle, though I haven't gone so far as to weigh the amount I use.

After the timer stops the vibratory tumbler, I remove the bottles, shake them out into a screen-type collander, shake it a bit to get some of the extra HBN off, then dump them onto an old towel where I roll them around briefly to further remove excess HBN. They're then dumped into their original factory boxes, and they're ready to load.

 

[fieldratsniper]

where can HBN be purchased?

and when you put the pill bottles with the bullets in the tumbler, im assuming you dont have any kind of media like corn cob or walnut right>

have you got any pictures of your coated bullets?

also, why not tumble the bullets in a ceramic media with the HBN just like you do with moly???

thanks again,
Jeremy

Jeremy, HBN= hexagonal boron nitride, which has some friction-reducing properties superior to moly. Not sure whether David Tubb was the first to use HBN or not, but when he stopped offering his DTAC 115s in moly'd form, and instead went with HBN, I started looking into it.

Even though Tubb has stated that his application methods can't be duplicated at home using 'the usual handloader equipment', I've had good results by simply dumping bullets into a clean pill bottle, adding HBN, screwing the lid on tightly, and securing it with packing tape. I leave enough room in the bottle for the bullets to move around a bit so that there will be enough impact between bullets to get a good coat of HBN established. It doesn't take a lot of HBN per bottle, though I haven't gone so far as to weigh the amount I use.

After the timer stops the vibratory tumbler, I remove the bottles, shake them out into a screen-type collander, shake it a bit to get some of the extra HBN off, then dump them onto an old towel where I roll them around briefly to further remove excess HBN. They're then dumped into their original factory boxes, and they're ready to load.

 

[jo191145]

FWIW
I've soaked Sierra poly tips in Acetone for 3 days and saw no difference. Even compared yanking them out like a bad tooth and they seemed identical to virgin.

Once read somewhere (Neco I think) that plating media should be replaced occassionally. Seems the moly will build up on the media lessening its ability to plate effectively. Not sure how true that is.

In areas of high humidity its best to warm all components in an oven before tumbling. I chuck media, moly or WS2 and bullets in the tumbler bowl and stick it in the oven at 200 degrees for an hour or so. This really helped imrove my results especially during the summer months.
I store my plating/tumbling equipment in my basement. I noticed over the years during winter with the wood furnace constantly running (low humidity) plating was easy. During the summer (high humidity) I could'nt coat for beans. Hence the heated oven to dissipitate moisture.

Never cared for moly much. WS2 worked better. HBN is THE ticket for bullet lube.
No washing, no heating, no media. Just chuck the bullets in the tumbler with some HBN and they come out perfect everytime. Summer or winter. Gotta love that.

moly, WS2, and HBN can all be purchased in large quantitys at lowerfriction.com. Look for thier Trial samples which is a lifetime supply for most shooters.

 

[fieldratsniper]

since WS2 is in the same family as Moly, do you use the same process for coating them?

45 bucks for a pound of WS2 isnt too bad. its better than 90 for HBN. and im already set up for moly coating....

FWIW
I've soaked Sierra poly tips in Acetone for 3 days and saw no difference. Even compared yanking them out like a bad tooth and they seemed identical to virgin.

Once read somewhere (Neco I think) that plating media should be replaced occassionally. Seems the moly will build up on the media lessening its ability to plate effectively. Not sure how true that is.

In areas of high humidity its best to warm all components in an oven before tumbling. I chuck media, moly or WS2 and bullets in the tumbler bowl and stick it in the oven at 200 degrees for an hour or so. This really helped imrove my results especially during the summer months.
I store my plating/tumbling equipment in my basement. I noticed over the years during winter with the wood furnace constantly running (low humidity) plating was easy. During the summer (high humidity) I could'nt coat for beans. Hence the heated oven to dissipitate moisture.

Never cared for moly much. WS2 worked better. HBN is THE ticket for bullet lube.
No washing, no heating, no media. Just chuck the bullets in the tumbler with some HBN and they come out perfect everytime. Summer or winter. Gotta love that.

moly, WS2, and HBN can all be purchased in large quantitys at lowerfriction.com. Look for thier Trial samples which is a lifetime supply for most shooters.

 

[flatlander]

I do keep plain corncob media in the tumbler bowl when coating bullets. Never tried it with an empty bowl, so can't say how that'd work.

I've never used ceramic media for moly or anything else. It might be fine, but since the NECO moly kit came with the steel shot, I used that until it started giving me fits.

I've never warmed or heated bullets or shot before moly coating; from everything I read in several articles on the process in PS magazine, there was no mention of it, nor did the NECO instructions mention the need for heating to coat with moly. AFAIK, the only benefit of warming was to get a nice, even, shiney coat of wax. I'd never have gone to the trouble of heating both shot & bullets if I'd have been able to get good results with the waxing step without doing so.

I purchased HBN from Momentive Performance before TAI Lubricants took over sales of small quantities of HBN, then purchased additional HNB products from them. Moly has served me well over the years, but I've simply run out of time & patience to deal with the coating process. HBN is so much simpler, with far fewer headaches. For me, it was either go with HBN, or shoot bare bullets and forget about coating altogether.

 

[fieldratsniper]

Okay, i think im getting you now.

you leave corn cob media in your tumbler. then put the bullets and HBN into medicine bottles and throw the bottle into the tumbler with the corn cob media. right?

now it seems to me that you wouldn't be able to fit many bullets into the pill bottles.

do you fill the pill bottle with bullets, or leave some room for the bullets to bounce and roll around?

thanks,
Jeremy

I do keep plain corncob media in the tumbler bowl when coating bullets. Never tried it with an empty bowl, so can't say how that'd work.

I've never used ceramic media for moly or anything else. It might be fine, but since the NECO moly kit came with the steel shot, I used that until it started giving me fits.

I've never warmed or heated bullets or shot before moly coating; from everything I read in several articles on the process in PS magazine, there was no mention of it, nor did the NECO instructions mention the need for heating to coat with moly. AFAIK, the only benefit of warming was to get a nice, even, shiney coat of wax. I'd never have gone to the trouble of heating both shot & bullets if I'd have been able to get good results with the waxing step without doing so.

I purchased HBN from Momentive Performance before TAI Lubricants took over sales of small quantities of HBN, then purchased additional HNB products from them. Moly has served me well over the years, but I've simply run out of time & patience to deal with the coating process. HBN is so much simpler, with far fewer headaches. For me, it was either go with HBN, or shoot bare bullets and forget about coating altogether.

 

[zfk55]

After reading it all, trying it all we finally ended up with the formula that works every single time.
If you've read this once before, its changed a lot since the original post.

We have one solitary rifle that is tightly chambered in .308 and throated for one solitary projectile profile only, and I mean only. Its a dedicated rifle with a 17-4 S/S, internally tapered and electro polished bore. To perform it must use Moly coated 175gr SMKs, and no other. "Performance" in this case is typically .55moa and at worst .635moa, repeatable and virtually every single time with 5 rounds.
The rifle's builder has been making this one profile for 11 years, so when I actually asked, he answered, and I'm only sorry I was dumb enough not to ask a lot sooner. This is the process.

The Moly must be lab grade Moly, 99.9% and no less. We begin with meplat trimming and pointing with the Hoover system. Typically we end up with just two weights. 175.0 and 175.1. We seperate them. We use Lake City LR only. Once fired LR from a specific source. We size, TTL on a Wilson Trimmer and seperate cases by weight. Typically we have only 3 weights with these once-fired LRs.

We use a large Dillon Commercial tumbler with 4 large jars inset into the CNC made top. (We make tops ourselves)

We do use .177 steel BBs that are washed in Dawn (Degreasing) liquid soap and a very hot water, thorough rinse.

The gent (builder) concerned is in Arizona with an outdoor ambient temperature of a nominal 102+ degrees, and he places his three Dillons in the sun for an hour before impact coating. (I didn't say tumbling) The black tops we've made for him absorb heat quickly.

We do the same in the summer. When its not hot enough in the sun we use a Halogen Lamp above the top.


The cleaned BBs are then placed in the jars to the 1/4 volume mark and allowed to heat. Once heated we place two full teaspoons of Moly in each jar. Lids sealed, they vibrate for three hours.

Projectiles are washed and rinsed the same way. We usually place them on a towel near the Dillon in the sun, allowing them to heat till they're almost too hot to touch. After washing we only touch them with latex gloves. This form of impact coating with the Dillon hits the projectiles fast and hard with the steel BBs and Moly. No suspension with pill jars in corncob. Hard, fast and lots of heat. Think about this one with logic. What happens to metal when its heated? The Moly is not a negative micron, right? Well?..........

We do up to 50 .30 cal. projectiles per jar, or 200 at a time. One more teaspoon of Moly in each jar, seal and vibrate for 3 hours. Once impact coated the projectiles will not allow more Moly to bond, so the excess stays in the jars. Heat is the secret. Heat. Once rolled back and forth in a Terry towel or 30 seconds in the corncob jars, our Moly coated projectiles come out smooth, deep blue/black, glossy and impervious to scratching. Every time.

Because of the electro-polishing, the Moly won't actually stay in this particular bore very well, but it does its function of dropping velocity and prolonging barrel life.

Every other rifle in the armoury has had it's bore cleaned, hBN slurry treated and only fires hBN impacted coated projectiles. Every rifle in all calibers. This one solitary rifle is by design, a dedicated Moly rifle, and it works.

Hope this helps a bit.

zfk55

I forgot to mention that we use a Hawkeye Borescope and closely monitor all of our barrels.

 

[nfa1eab]

Norz,

I have been moly coating bullets for a number of years using # 5 steel shot in a vibratory tumbler. Cleaning/degreasing the bullets is a must to get a good coat. After coating for 1 hour in the shot/moly bowl, I would roll them on a towel to remove excess moly and then tumble in corn cob media with a little powdered carnuba wax for 20 minutes and they always turned out deep steely grey and very polished.

After several years of this method successfully, I began to see degradation in the process. Coating became dull, even got clumping on the bullets and bare edges as you have described. I took the moly bowl and shot and rinsed with hot water, then added dawn dishwashing liquid and thoroughly cleaned the media and bowl and re-added moly. Since then, the process has returned to it's orignal success and finish. I don't know why the media got contaminated but I would suggest either cleaning it or replacing the media and cleaning the bowl thoroughly. This solved my issues and retuned me to ;D. Hope this helps.

Ed

 

[flatlander]

Jeremy, the pill bottles I'm using are actually large enough to hold a couple hundred 75gr. .224" bullets, or over 100 6.5mms. As I said in a previous post, it's best to leave a little space in the bottle so the bullets have enough room to impact against each other. And yes - now you're getting it when it comes to loading the tumbler tub with media, then tossing the filled & sealed bottles in.