MOA versus MIL?

[moondog]

Question 1: Buy MIL or MOA now?
Well, that really depends on the game and also somewhat of FFP vs SFP.

A lot of SFP scopes are MOA scope sand these are better suited for precision games like F-class and Benchrest in KD ranges. The apparent size of the reticle gets smaller with magnification and you don't need the ranging capabilities of an FFP scope There are MIL reticles in SFP scopes, but the MOA is more prevalent and better suited for NRA competitions.

The FFP scopes "usually" come with MIL reticles/knobs, and it's easier to range distance with an FFP scope. The apparent reticle size will remain the same on target as magnification grows, but in the eyepiece, it will grow and that can be disconcerting for SFP users.

I have shot a lot of F-Class and everything in that game is MOA. When people come to play and bring a MIL scope, it confuses this old man, but I can power through it if I have to. I strongly recommend an SFP/MOA combo for that.

I have shot a tiny bit of PRS and I can see where an SFP/MOA scope is not indicated. In the most recent PRS match I shot, the target distances were provided ahead of time, but they were from 300 yards to 1000 yards, and at various distances. I worked up a list of the target distances and the MIL offset from a 100 yard zero. Everything but the 1000 yard target was available within one rotation.

Let's say I had 3 distances to deal with on a stage: 317 yards, 548 yards and 784 yards. I had worked out the come ups prior to the match for the listed distances, all values were from 100 yard zero. For example, the values for those 3 distances would be something like 4.7 @ 317, 6.1 @ 548, and 8.4 @ 784. My scope has 10MIL/rotation, with 0.0 set for 100 yards. For each stage, I would have the dial set at the first distance for that stage, then I would dial to the distance of the next shot and so on. The number would be exact on the dial and provided you had properly calculated the come-ups, you could blindly dial for the next distance, hold on and compensate for the wind and take the shot. If you saw the splash near the target, your Christmas tree reticle would help you figure out your correction.

That would be a little more complicated with MOA as these division as 1/4 or 1/8 and there's 3.5 times more MAOs than MILs for the same distance. You would have something like 14 & 3/4 @ 317, 21 & 1/4 @ 548 and 29 & 2/4 @784. That's more complicated dialing, especially if your knob is 10MOA/rotation.

So, depends on the game.

Question 2: LPVOs. That has changed a great deal in the last few years. The top of the line right now is the March-F 1-10X24 with dual reticle in MIL. I think MOA is too fine for LPVOs.

Most my moa ffp scopes have at least 25 moa per rev. Schmidt, N.F. Razor2.
Not a valid comparison. I think it's more the convenience of being able to TALK with others in one language

 

[Liven The Dream]

Being a F/Class Open Shooter these days !
Our Targets and Wind Charts are all in Minutes .
On average I would say few shooter are using Mil's ?
Second FP is also most common .

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Most my moa ffp scopes have at least 25 moa per rev. Schmidt, N.F. Razor2.
Not a valid comparison. I think it's more the convenience of being able to TALK with others in one language

Yeah, at 1/4 MOA clicks, 25MOA/revolution is pretty standard. When you get to 1/8MOA clicks, that's a different story.

 

[NZ_Fclass]

I hear ya, culture is a funny thing. I graduated HS in 1967 and remember talk that US would be switching to metric system and begin teaching it "soon, lol it hasn't happened. Learned metric system in college, much simpler than English imperial, and used it at work and personally ever since.

At one point, NZ was the place to buy an 8x4 of 18mm plywood.

 

[CharlieNC]

At one point, NZ was the place to buy an 8x4 of 18mm plywood.

Here the cars can contain bolts which are both metric and English sizes. Planning?

 

[XTR]

First consideration is what is the application.

As noted above, F class and NRA shooting in general has rings that are laid out in something pretty close to ½ MOA rings. If you are looking at your impact on target and correcting on the turret then moving 2½ rings is 1.5MOA so 6 or 12 clicks depending on your turrets is your answer, if you're doing that in mil then at least for me, the math gets a tad harder to do in your head. Coaching someone that has a mil scope can be challenging for the first couple of sighters.

If you are shooting PRS the advantage of mil is that most everyone around you is and you can converse in the same units. Not that it happens often any more but if you have to do a range calc the numbers are easier in mil because you're multiplying times 10.

For hunting use what works for you.

 

[rijndael]

If you are looking at your impact on target and correcting on the turret then moving 2½ rings is 1.5MOA so 6 or 12 clicks depending on your turrets is your answer, if you're doing that in mil then at least for me, the math gets a tad harder to do in your head.

Aren't you just counting the POI from POA off on your reticle and adjusting? Or, are you a SFP scope and not at the calibrated power?

 

[NZ_Fclass]

Here the cars can contain bolts which are both metric and English sizes. Planning?

A few years ago, I had a Land Rover that was ex-New Zealand Army and decided to remove the old 3.5 litre V8 ( an English copy of a Buick) and replace it with a diesel for reliability and lower gas consumption. I put in a Toyota PZ and 5 speed gearbox.

The most fun in the rebuild was removing the mis-matched metric bolts that had been cranked into imperial nuts, some captive on the chassis - you know, minor things like the gearbox support cross member.

We have to run with both systems here, as we deal with imported goods from the UK, USA , Japan and Europe - the only standards that are not common are the UK's "wire guage" when referring to sheet metal and US drill sizes.

 

[shoot4fun]

Here the cars can contain bolts which are both metric and English sizes. Planning?

Not planning; the people at Snap On Tool made an under the table deal so mechanics would have to buy both sets of sockets and hex wrenches.

 

[Matt_3479]

I own more moa but will purchase mil from here forward

 

[XTR]

Aren't you just counting the POI from POA off on your reticle and adjusting? Or, are you a SFP scope and not at the calibrated power?

My NF scopes have DDR-2 reticles, there isn't anything in the reticle for adjustment. If I dial anything on the scope it's based on what I see on the target or the flags during sighters. The rings on NRA targets are each ½ MOA further from center than the last* so if the spotter comes up in the middle of the 8 ring it's 1¼ MOA from the center. (*OK, it's 1¼ from the 8-ring to the 7-ring). People shoot F class with pretty much any reticle. The only time anyone I know uses the reticles is when they don't want to dial and they are holding at or beyond the edge of the target, then they start using one of the reference marks as the new "center" and hold off from there. (I've held an MOA off on a dirt clump before)

FFP or SFP you don't need the ruler in the scope. There is one on the target, and it's the one that matters.

 

[wizarc]

The unit of measurement is an insignificant factor.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

The unit of measurement is an insignificant factor.

Absolutely. Now come up 2 and right 4.

 

[Liven The Dream]

The unit of measurement is an insignificant factor.

So are Flying Cows .

 

[jelenko]

There are flying cows? I've heard of pigs flying but nothing about cows.

 

[dttheliman]

The unit of measurement is an insignificant factor.

mmm so y'all be ok with this reticle?

 

[drop_point]

I always hurt people's feelings when I talk about this, but here goes:


If you are trying to "visualize" inches at 1000 yards or any range, you're in the wrong mindset.

If you think FFP is "for ranging", you're in the wrong mindset.

You see, your reticle is a ruler. There is no reason to convert linear measurements to angular measurements back to linear measurements. Stay in the angular measurement realm. For instance: "that round was 0.4 mils from center" and then you adjust 0.4 mils. No reason to talk about inches. No conversion necessary. What's nice is your spotter can make your wind calls in mils. Its actually really easy when you give up converting things needlessly and learn to use the reticle as your ruler.

Additionally, FFP isn't just "for ranging". It is for making those subtensions, especially the windage, work at any power. When you're cranked up to max magnification and you can't see well enough through mirage, you can turn down and your holds can still be accurate at an magnification. You can do your wind holds easier this way without trying to "math" it.

As far as mils vs MOA, it really doesn't matter so much so long as your reticle, turrets, and those shooting with you speak the same language. Mils are easier for me because they are dimes. The numbers are more manageable and easier to remember. I can do 7.6 mils much easier than 27 3/4 MOA. Also, it can be quite rare to find a spotting scope in anything but mils.

I know conventional wisdom is SFP for target shooting at known distances, but I have done well with wind calls with an FFP scope, and even won a few local F-class matches back when I used to shoot quite a bit.

I know WHY people like their SFP MOA scopes, however, many express things that are simply not true in their rationale. Choose the right tool for the right job. Sometimes the sacred cows do need slain.

 

[Rob01]

Only people who would get their feelings hurt are the people who don't understand it anyways. I have written almost the same post for years whenever this subject comes up. Don't forget the "MOA is finer" group. LOL

 

[drop_point]

You're right about that, Rob. I like to say ask your wife how important 0.07" is. That crowd needs to get out and shoot!

 

[js2013]

Whichever is on sale!