Mid Range F T/R 223 Rifle/Load

[raptor1ronin]

I love this topic great read good people. Im currently in the build process for my Might Mouse gun. There have some great people with great advise.

My current build barrel will be 1-6/7 twist 5R Bartlein 33" finished 32" HV Palma. I will test both Varget and 8208XBR. I have friends who have good luck with H4895 which has a similar burn rate of H4895 and also is Temp insensitive. I would love to get arond 2850 and be able to reload more than 5 times which is possible.


I find this topic fascinating because I felt like I was a select few who were trying to compete with a .223

What bullet are you planning on using. Since both accuracy and velocity are important it seems like that should be our starting point and then optimize the other parameters for that bullet choice. Your thoughts?

Im going to build this specifically for the 90VLD, This rirle will have a long freebore and the guy building it has had great sucess with jumping them .20 off lands. Let me know if you need any conacts they can help you with any questions that may come up.

 

[chkunz]

The 90's are worth it as far as I'm concerned. The BC is 100 points better than ANY 80-82g projectile available and you're only going to get another 100-125 FPS out of a 80g bullet. But, like I've said before, you must set the rifle up to shoot the 90's. My OAL on my new, unfired barrel started at 2.640 touching the lands with 90's. I load 20 thousands into the lands giving me an OAL of 2.660. Most REGULAR chambers will put the 90's at 2.460 or so and that's 200 thousands shorter than where I started. You will not get the velocity or powder capacity you need in a short chamber. As far as being worth it.....

90's are .551 BC at 2880 FPS out of a 31" barrel (that's 6-BRX wind drift with 105 hybrids)
compare my 6xc
105 Hybrids are .547 BC at 3085 (yes a bit better)
and a 308
I shoot 208 AMAX, BC is .648 at 2630 FPS almost identical wind drift to the 223, 90g load but those AMAX bullets will beat you up.


Barrel life.....

last 223 barrel lasted 3550 rounds of mostly 90g bullets

6xc is at 1270 and probably won't get to 1800 (but it's one heck of a shooter)

308, great barrel life but the pounding is relentless...you are worn out after a match .....not necessary for 600 yds.

RB

This is the kind of information I am looking for, thanks so much.

 

[raptor1ronin]

I was wondering if you guys have tried the 2000 Mr
back in my rem 700 PSS 223 gays l was pushing 80 gr. a-max at 3200 fps
never had a fast twist barrel to test the 90 gr. but guessing 3000 fps should not be difficult to achieve

I think we are looking for both accuracy and velocity from the heavier bullets with the high BCs. Also I would like to stay away from the excessive pressures that some folks use to push velocity to the limits. Do you think it is possible to get 3000 fps with the 90 grain bullets without exceeding standard pressure limits? We have the option of barrel length and powder choice to work with. I would like to find that the F T/R folks have done the research for us. This is where they live.

I know of one here in AZ who i shoot with Scott Harris, He's also doing my Barrel work, And another guy who lives in Cali which I had a chance to shoot with (great shooter ) Greg Taylor. He has a 90VLD set up which shoots awesome. Those two can get you on the right track. I have seens scotts gun shoot the 90'S and it hold its own against the 185 Jugs. Where you will lose or gain points is your wind reading skills. (Im still working on that

 

[chkunz]

Love my tube gun in 223

I shoot FTR with it both at 600 and 1000yds. Throated for 90vlds, but shoots 80vlds well also.

Drew

If that gun shoots as good as it looks then you have a hammer. Please provide more information on your comment "throated for 90 VLD".

 

[r bose]

There was a forum member named Froggyone2 using 2000-MR with 90's getting very good results.....great speed and accuracy shooting palma matches at 800,900, and 1000 yards. Some almost perfect scores with his 223 bolt palma rifle. If I remember correctly he had a 32" barrel on it.

I have a supply of Reloader 15 and it works for me.

 

[raptor1ronin]

Now the trick is finding 90VLD right now. I just Called berger about when the next run will be. Seems like it will be around Oct. Last time i checked it was for Aug. Good thing I still have some left for testing.

is anyone else in this boat ?

 

[r bose]

NO I'm not in that boat.

If you have a prone rifle that uses ONE bullet it's best to keep enough on hand to burn the barrel out.

 

[raptor1ronin]

NO I'm not in that boat.

If you have a prone rifle that uses ONE bullet it's best to keep enough on hand to burn the barrel out.

This is true , have a nice order in just waiting for them to produce. Good thing my current rig shoots the 80VLD awesome.

 

[chkunz]

Most XTC shooters have settled on the Wylde chamber for the AR in 223. I have an AR with this chamber and it shoots the 80 SMK well. But I am wondering if this chamber is compatible with the 90 grain bullets (does it require that they are seated too deep into the case and into the donut ring and also reduce powder charge adversely)?

 

[r bose]

T-REX my point exactly. ALL 223 chambers are too short for the 90's in my opinion. The Wylde chamber is a great place for your gunsmith to start BUT then, they (gunsmith) will need to throat your rifling to extend the length at which the bullet can be seated shallower into the case before engaging the rifling. Make sense?
So yes, if you use a Wylde chamber as is, it will be too short making you seat the 90's too deep in the case giving up powder capacity, speed and accuracy. Then, you might as well stick with 80's because 90's won't be an advantage. I find the sweet spot for 90's is about 2825-2885 FPS/MV. That's where they shine. Long barrel will be necessary.

 

[chkunz]

T-REX my point exactly. ALL 223 chambers are too short for the 90's in my opinion. The Wylde chamber is a great place for your gunsmith to start BUT then, they (gunsmith) will need to throat your rifling to extend the length at which the bullet can be seated shallower into the case before engaging the rifling. Make sense?
So yes, if you use a Wylde chamber as is, it will be too short making you seat the 90's too deep in the case giving up powder capacity, speed and accuracy. Then, you might as well stick with 80's because 90's won't be an advantage. I find the sweet spot for 90's is about 2825-2885 FPS/MV. That's where they shine. Long barrel will be necessary.

This is really great information, thanks so much. You opened the next topic really well, "long barrel will be necessary". Of course my next question is how long? This does not matter to F-T/R folks but to a sling shooter, an old sling shooter, weight is important, balance is important.

 

[skiutah02]

If that gun shoots as good as it looks then you have a hammer. Please provide more information on your comment "throated for 90 VLD".

She shoots pretty well. Here is one of the better groups I've had at 600. The sticker is 3in and it is a 7 shot group. It'll do

The chamber was cut with a 223 reamer with 0.169 freebore. This reamer was designed specifically for the 90vlds


Also shot a penny twice at 600 yds with 5 shots as described here.

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=3856262.msg36468156#msg36468156

 

[r bose]

T-REX, I just installed a 31" Heavy Palma profile barrel on my rifle. I like the little extra weight and stability it provides. Most guys shooting prone I know, regardless of caliber, use a medium or heavy palma contour barrel at 30'-32' long.

Also, longer barrels equals longer sight radius's and that's a big plus to a prone shooter. I want my front sight as far out as possible.

 

[chkunz]

T-REX, I just installed a 31" Heavy Palma profile barrel on my rifle. I like the little extra weight and stability it provides. Most guys shooting prone I know, regardless of caliber, use a medium or heavy palma contour barrel at 30'-32' long.

Also, longer barrels equals longer sight radius's and that's a big plus to a prone shooter. I want my front sight as far out as possible.

As you say, the advantages of the longer barrel: stability, velocity, and sight radius are obviously significant and that shows with most folks in the 30 to 32 inch range as you have observed. Here is what I am thinking for my application; at my age weight is becoming an issue and I need to keep the weight within my limitations and I may have to compromise some on barrel length to do that. Since I am shooting in the Any/Any category with a scope the added sight radius is not important. What is important is to have a barrel length that gives sufficient velocity to take advantage of the capability of the bullet. For example, what would be the velocity difference between a 26 inch barrel, a 28 inch barrel, or a 30 inch barrel with the 90 grain bullets? For me the reduction in weight might be worth the trade in velocity. Also it may be that to take advantage of the 90 grain bullets there is a barrel length that is needed to get the velocity to justify going from the 80s to the 90s. Your thoughts?

 

[jsthntn247]

You need to push the 90's at 2800 or above to justify using them.

 

[cjmill87]

If your going to shoot any/any and weight is a concern I would suggest you look at a 24-26" barrel chambered in 6br, especially if your shooting 600 and in. I'm not sure a shorter barrel is going to get you the velocity you need to run the 90s in 223.

 

[chkunz]

You need to push the 90's at 2800 or above to justify using them.

That is a great data point, thanks. Do you know if you can get them to 2800 without exceeding safe pressure limits? Also, what barrel length would be required to get 2800 with safe pressure?

 

[wapiti25]

Go longer than you think you want and cut back as needed.

 

[chkunz]

If your going to shoot any/any and weight is a concern I would suggest you look at a 24-26" barrel chambered in 6br, especially if your shooting 600 and in. I'm not sure a shorter barrel is going to get you the velocity you need to run the 90s in 223.

I think your recommendation has a lot of merit but shudder at the thought of adding another caliber. I have loaded about a billion 308s and it was a major step to add 223 and I bought another T-7 press to dedicate to 223 and then to make matters worse I added the 260 for 1000 yards and then bought another T-7 press...... I will take your recommendation and hold it in the back of my mind in case I can not get to where I want to go with the 223. Thanks again.

 

[chkunz]

I'm a little late to this parade, but I'll chime in with my experience so far shooting the 90 VLDs. I have a GAP rifle with the Templar2 action, single feed, coned bolt, and Bartlein 5R (.218"/.224") 30" barrel. I bought the RemISSF reamer from Dave Kiff at PTG that has .169" freebore. My load is 24.0 gr (current lot) H4895 in Lapua brass with the bullets seated ~.015" off the lands (2.636" COAL). I am getting right at 2850 fps with this load, which gives a barrel time in Quickload of 1.371 ms, just a tick slower than the OBT node (1.2684 ms for a 30" barrel).

I've given a lot of thought to how the performance of the 90 VLDs might be improved, even just a little bit, from what I'm currently running. Laurie Holland is a real expert in this area, having worked on the same idea for some time. The main problem in trying to increase velocity is that you're really running up close to max pressure in terms of brass life, as well as the magnitude of increase in velocity that would be necessary to reach the next OBT node. I would love to be able to shoot the 90s at 2900 to 2950 fps. You're talking very close to 200 gr Hybrid performance in a .308 at that velocity, with almost no recoil to speak of. Unfortunately for me, I can easily push them that fast, but brass life is remarkably poor and it's not on an accuracy node. Without precision, velocity means little.

You can play around with a variety of different parameters in Quickload to try and predict some combination of barrel length, powder, freebore, etc., that will give you higher velocity than the 2850 fps I'm currently getting. Unfortunately, if it doesn't coincide with an accuracy node it's not going to buy much. I can easily get the 90s faster than 2900 fps with my current setup, but brass life is nonexistent and accuracy/precision is poor. In my hands, reaching the next OBT node velocity-wise is pretty much impossible...it's way, way up there. The best I have been able to accomplish at this point by modeling different setups in Quickload is to determine that by going with a longer throat (i.e. > .200" freebore), I can probably extend brass life significantly while remaining at the ~2850 fps node. However, velocity at the OBT node really doesn't go up by much by increasing freebore or barrel length, so there wouldn't be more than a marginal improvement in ballistics. So you can likely improve the pressure issues, but not by nearly enough to reach the next OBT node. For now I will continue to play around with various combinations to see whether it might be possible to push the 90s to the next level, but I'm afraid I'm probably already at the max ballistic performance I'm going get with my setup. The good news is that this rifle shoots extremely well out to 1000 yds as it is. I've shot it in enough competitions now that I'm comfortable saying I'm not giving up anything to my .308 185 Juggernaut load by shooting the .223, even in tough wind conditions. When you add in the almost complete lack of recoil, this setup is a real pleasure to shoot.

There is so much good information here I almost do not know where to start with questions but let me see if I can summarize what you are telling me. You are getting 2850 (wind drift competitive with a high performance 308?) and good accuracy (with a load that does not exceed max pressures?) (gets good brass and barrel life?). This is probably obvious but I assume that you are getting better performance with the 90s than you could with the 80s so how would you characterize this improvement, accuracy?, wind drift?