Mid Range F T/R 223 Rifle/Load

[chkunz]

I am considering building a tube gun in 223 dedicated to shooting Mid Range on the conventional (sling) target. I would like to take advantage of what the F-T/R folks have learned to guide the design of the rifle and 223 load for this application. If you shoot the 223 at 600 yards in F-T/R I would appreciate you input on this topic.

 

[skiutah02]

Love my tube gun in 223

I shoot FTR with it both at 600 and 1000yds. Throated for 90vlds, but shoots 80vlds well also.

Drew

 

[chkunz]

Drew, Thanks very much for the reply. Please provide more info on the powder choice of these bullets. Any other load info would be helpful. I am not asking for the exact load since I understand that is gun specific but any details would be helpful. Also, have you tried other bullets?

 

[chkunz]

Drew, I also notice that the scope aft (ocular) lens is about even with the trigger with the scope on an extended rail. This is no small detail that I do not hear folks talk about but is important to getting a good position. How did you arrive at this configuration?

 

[RStewart]

30" Bartlein Barrel
1:6.5 Twist Barrel
80 SMK
23.2 grains of IMR 8208.
2850 fps.

I can shoot the Berger 90's, but my rifle is throated for the 80's, so to shoot the 90's I have to reduce the powder load due to setting the bullet so low in the case. Accurate, but I lose about 100 fps.

 

[skiutah02]

Drew, I also notice that the scope aft (ocular) lens is about even with the trigger with the scope on an extended rail. This is no small detail that I do not hear folks talk about but is important to getting a good position. How did you arrive at this configuration?

To be honest the 90s have been a battle. This is my experience, but it comes from nearly 1000 of them in 2 barrels. Have tried two powders personally - Varget and IMR8208XBR with very good (but not perfect) results. Others have tried H4895 with good success but I have not. I'm back to varget and will shoot a match this weekend with a new recipe. The 80s shoot so well with varget, I've only tried it. With the 90vlds, I can shoot mid 190s at 600 pretty consistently, but have been trying everything to get higher scores (but the shooter is also to blame). There is a very good write up on getting the 90vld started. Everyone trying 90vld in 223 should read it. If you google "mighty mouse gun on steroids 223 90 vld" it will be the first hit. This is where I started.

As for the optic position, my personal preference is to mount the scope in rings loosely and then position myself behind the rifle until I am comfortable. I then adjust my stock (if equipped) to get close to the proper eye relief. The Eliseo is great for this as it is almost infinitely adjustable. I heard a fellow shooter remark that if the Eliseo stock does not fit you, you just don't have enough allen wrenches. So true. Once close, I then move the scope fore-and-aft in the rings until I get optimum sight. Once I think I am finished, I get up, then get on the rifle and assume my shooting position - WITH MY EYES CLOSED. Once set, I open my eyes and if the reticle is "right there" every time I do it, I do what needs to be done to get the reticle level at that position and tighten the screws. If not, I continue until it is "right there" every time I get behind the rifle. This is a long answer to say that's where it ended up for me on this particular rifle.

Drew

 

[r bose]

I think it's best to decide what bullet you're going to shoot and then build the rifle around it. My opinion is most shooters get into a project without researching an outcome first. I recently re chambered my 223 bolt gun for the 90g Berger VLD's only.

1/7 TW Bartlien 31" Heavy Palma contour
223 match chamber with a throat that has the bullet touching the lands while the pressure ring (at the base of the bullet) is just past the neck shoulder junction. (pressure ring is slightly into the neck) I use R-15 and my loads are for a 20 thou jamb:

LC 09 cases 24.8g
Lapua cases 24.5g Velocity is right at 2880 FPS for both loads.

Lapua cases are a bit heavier. Both loads are sub 1/2 min at 300 yds. I shoot in a sling and this is my prone gun/palma gun. Recoil is like shooting a rimfire. (ok maybe a bit more) but you get my point.

Its fun to shoot, no recoil, won't wear you down or beat you up, and will shoot where you aim it.

 

[Delaware_Ken]

I run a Savage F/TR 223 7 twist. She really likes the 80 grain Bergers in front of 24.4 grains of Varget. She will hang with, and usually outshoot the 308's at 600 in F/TR if the operator does his part. Like mentioned in the post above, she is a real pleasure to shoot.

Ken

 

[chkunz]

Thanks for the great information. This is very helpful. I have been shooting the M14 since they dug the river and just getting into the Mid Range and Long Range game. I have an Eliseo tube gun in 260 Remington for 1000 yards that works well and have been shooting a White Oak Armament 223 with scope at 600 yards and it does well and is easy to shoot. I am considering another tube gun for the mid range in 223 but as you say I need to start with the bullet in mind. It would be good to know if the 90 grain bullets are worth the extra effort before buying a barrel and having it chambered.

 

[wapiti25]

Try the accuracy load from Sierra using 80 gr SMK's and Varget, I use Tula/Wolf SRM primers. I also have used Berger 80 gr VLD and they may be more accurate over a lot off rounds. I'm shooting a reworked 700 and a Krieger 26" 1:8 barrel shooting F-open, the 6mm BR and Dasher guy's know I'm there with several second & third place's

 

[chkunz]

Try the accuracy load from Sierra using 80 gr SMK's and Varget, I use Tula/Wolf SRM primers. I also have used Berger 80 gr VLD and they may be more accurate over a lot off rounds. I'm shooting a reworked 700 and a Krieger 26" 1:8 barrel shooting F-open, the 6mm BR and Dasher guy's know I'm there with several second & third place's

Thanks, I agree the Sierra accuracy load is a good place to start. Have you tried any of the 90 grain Sierra or Berger bullets? I would like to know how they compare to the 80s.

 

[akajun]

rbose has had good luck with the Berger 90's for mid range prone. He shoots a 1/7 twist and mr2000 powder.
He said his gun also shoots the 80's and 82's very well as well, but the 90's buck the wind better.

 

[chkunz]

rbose has had good luck with the Berger 90's for mid range prone. He shoots a 1/7 twist and mr2000 powder.
He said his gun also shoots the 80's and 82's very well as well, but the 90's buck the wind better.

Good input, thanks. What I am wondering is where is the trade off between the higher bullet weight and higher BC vs muzzle velocity. At some point the trade will become unfavorable and I want to stay within safe operating pressure.

 

[akajun]

HE says he is getting the velocity up there, but he is using a palma length barrel to do that. I dont think that they would do well in a service rifle barrel, its been tried, but maybe a 24 or 26" would work.

 

[raptor1ronin]

I love this topic great read good people. Im currently in the build process for my Might Mouse gun. There have some great people with great advise.

My current build barrel will be 1-6/7 twist 5R Bartlein 33" finished 32" HV Palma. I will test both Varget and 8208XBR. I have friends who have good luck with H4895 which has a similar burn rate of H4895 and also is Temp insensitive. I would love to get arond 2850 and be able to reload more than 5 times which is possible.

I find this topic fascinating because I felt like I was a select few who were trying to compete with a .223

 

[DukeDuke]

I was wondering if you guys have tried the 2000 Mr
back in my rem 700 PSS 223 gays l was pushing 80 gr. a-max at 3200 fps
never had a fast twist barrel to test the 90 gr. but guessing 3000 fps should not be difficult to achieve

 

[chkunz]

HE says he is getting the velocity up there, but he is using a palma length barrel to do that. I dont think that they would do well in a service rifle barrel, its been tried, but maybe a 24 or 26" would work.

The application for the heavier 90 grain bullets I am considering is for a bolt gun and not the service rifle. So I am not constrained by service barrel length. This would be a specialty 223 for shooting 600 yard midrange prone matches. I can start with the best bullet choice and then specify chamber design, twist and barrel length for that bullet. Accuracy and velocity are both important in this application. I do not want another research project, I would like to find where someone has already done this and copy what they have learned. I expect some of the F Class F-T/R folks have done this.

 

[chkunz]

I love this topic great read good people. Im currently in the build process for my Might Mouse gun. There have some great people with great advise.

My current build barrel will be 1-6/7 twist 5R Bartlein 33" finished 32" HV Palma. I will test both Varget and 8208XBR. I have friends who have good luck with H4895 which has a similar burn rate of H4895 and also is Temp insensitive. I would love to get arond 2850 and be able to reload more than 5 times which is possible.

I find this topic fascinating because I felt like I was a select few who were trying to compete with a .223

What bullet are you planning on using. Since both accuracy and velocity are important it seems like that should be our starting point and then optimize the other parameters for that bullet choice. Your thoughts?

 

[r bose]

The 90's are worth it as far as I'm concerned. The BC is 100 points better than ANY 80-82g projectile available and you're only going to get another 100-125 FPS out of a 80g bullet. But, like I've said before, you must set the rifle up to shoot the 90's. My OAL on my new, unfired barrel started at 2.640 touching the lands with 90's. I load 20 thousands into the lands giving me an OAL of 2.660. Most REGULAR chambers will put the 90's at 2.460 or so and that's 200 thousands shorter than where I started. You will not get the velocity or powder capacity you need in a short chamber. As far as being worth it.....

90's are .551 BC at 2880 FPS out of a 31" barrel (that's 6-BRX wind drift with 105 hybrids)
compare my 6xc
105 Hybrids are .547 BC at 3085 (yes a bit better)
and a 308
I shoot 208 AMAX, BC is .648 at 2630 FPS almost identical wind drift to the 223, 90g load but those AMAX bullets will beat you up.


Barrel life.....

last 223 barrel lasted 3550 rounds of mostly 90g bullets

6xc is at 1270 and probably won't get to 1800 (but it's one heck of a shooter)

308, great barrel life but the pounding is relentless...you are worn out after a match .....not necessary for 600 yds.

RB

 

[chkunz]

I was wondering if you guys have tried the 2000 Mr
back in my rem 700 PSS 223 gays l was pushing 80 gr. a-max at 3200 fps
never had a fast twist barrel to test the 90 gr. but guessing 3000 fps should not be difficult to achieve

I think we are looking for both accuracy and velocity from the heavier bullets with the high BCs. Also I would like to stay away from the excessive pressures that some folks use to push velocity to the limits. Do you think it is possible to get 3000 fps with the 90 grain bullets without exceeding standard pressure limits? We have the option of barrel length and powder choice to work with. I would like to find that the F T/R folks have done the research for us. This is where they live.