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Measure Four times - Load once? More newbie questions - RCBS Pocket Scale Sucks?

AuthenticShooter

Hi folks, new to handloading and am about ready to begin my load work up. I confirmed my chrono set up by firing some factory rounds and recording them and they are in line with the FPS listed on the ammo packaging. Some great advice from members OSO and D-4297 on best practices and starting charges and I am good to go.

So I get my powder measure all set up, my trickler is primed, and my RCBS digital pocket scale is calibrated. WAIT is it? I followed the directions, got it to PASS on the calibration process. So I charge the cases ( Ar-15 223 BTW) - 5 ea starting at 24.8.

It's going along good but every now and then the scale powers down, and I go through the whole calibration process again, cuz you know I am new, and I don't wanna leave anything to chance. Something makes me check, for giggles and grins, the first 10 rounds. WHAT THE _______.! They are all over then place by at least .2 to .4 grains! So I empty em all out and start over...Long story short -I could never get the same reading twice. I could fill a case, it reads 24.8 on the scale. Put it in the rack, finish the rest, then come back and check em and they don't measure the same!

This isn't good, (Also, when I try to use then TARE adjustment it doesn't work, the scale never zeros out to allow for the powder funnel. ) So I call RCBS and the first thing the tech says to me is "have you wiped the scale with a dryer fabric softener sheet?" I'm like what no I haven't - didn't know I was supposed to. He says yeah the scale is sensitive so that helps. Then he asks me " Are you using it under fluorescent light?" I tell him yeah. He says "The scale is sensitive and we recommend using it with LED lighting." Further inspection reveals I mispoke, I do have LED lighting installed over my bench, but not in the rest of my basement. But whatever - I take my cases upstairs to the kitchen where there is normal lighting and I measure them a third time. I seem to have more consistent results this time but I am thinking to myself - "this dang reloading is becoming more and more like alchemy."

So I don't know whether to trust these measurements or not. RCBS, to their credit, after I explained the TARE not zeroing issue, is sending me a replacement scale. Has anybody else experienced problems with RCBS digital scales? Am I just snake bit on this process or what?
 
It's not alchemy. It's just that all the cheap digital scales tend to not have very good repeatability or consistency. Reloading is like everything else... you get what you pay for.

A scale that can repeatedly and reliably tell you what your charge is is imperative for handloading success. One of the small, cheap digital scales may have a place - in-the-field reloading, say - but only if you have a reliable scale you can verify it against. Without that kind of baseline measurement tool, you never really know what you've got.

I'd recommend you buy either a Chargemaster/Chargemaster Lite, or an old-school beam-type scale.

And, as you've discovered, any of the digital models - even good ones - can be affected by static, fluorescent lighting, and all the rest of the RFI (radio frequency interference) that is part and parcel of our modern world. The good news is that that problem can usually be solved without too much drama. And the better digital scales tend to be a little more resistant to RFI than the cheaper models.

A lot of folks like dryer sheets to reduce static. Not all of us are a fan of that approach.

Welcome to the wonderful world of handloading! Looking forward to a report on your first successful rounds downrange.
 
AuthenticShooter said:
Hi folks, new to handloading and am about ready to begin my load work up. I confirmed my chrono set up by firing some factory rounds and recording them and they are in line with the FPS listed on the ammo packaging. Some great advice from members OSO and D-4297 on best practices and starting charges and I am good to go.

So I get my powder measure all set up, my trickler is primed, and my RCBS digital pocket scale is calibrated. WAIT is it? I followed the directions, got it to PASS on the calibration process. So I charge the cases ( Ar-15 223 BTW) - 5 ea starting at 24.8.

It's going along good but every now and then the scale powers down, and I go through the whole calibration process again, cuz you know I am new, and I don't wanna leave anything to chance. Something makes me check, for giggles and grins, the first 10 rounds. WHAT THE _______.! They are all over then place by at least .2 to .4 grains! So I empty em all out and start over...Long story short -I could never get the same reading twice. I could fill a case, it reads 24.8 on the scale. Put it in the rack, finish the rest, then come back and check em and they don't measure the same!

This isn't good, (Also, when I try to use then TARE adjustment it doesn't work, the scale never zeros out to allow for the powder funnel. ) So I call RCBS and the first thing the tech says to me is "have you wiped the scale with a dryer fabric softener sheet?" I'm like what no I haven't - didn't know I was supposed to. He says yeah the scale is sensitive so that helps. Then he asks me " Are you using it under fluorescent light?" I tell him yeah. He says "The scale is sensitive and we recommend using it with LED lighting." Further inspection reveals I mispoke, I do have LED lighting installed over my bench, but not in the rest of my basement. But whatever - I take my cases upstairs to the kitchen where there is normal lighting and I measure them a third time. I seem to have more consistent results this time but I am thinking to myself - "this dang reloading is becoming more and more like alchemy."

So I don't know whether to trust these measurements or not. RCBS, to their credit, after I explained the TARE not zeroing issue, is sending me a replacement scale. Has anybody else experienced problems with RCBS digital scales? Am I just snake bit on this process or what?
Click to expand...

This is pretty common for cheap small pocket type scales. If you're after precision weighing, or even close to it, you're not going to get consistent measurements with them. When I'm using my cheap Frankford Arsenal DS-750 scale, I'll weight a load. or whatever I'm weighing, several times and making sure the pan is sitting on the same place on the platform to see which number it comes up with the most and that's the one I accept as being the weight. I just don't feel one should expect these scales to produce consistent results, especially anywhere near what a lab quality scale can do. Though with some comparison testing I've done, I feel lucky that my little DS-750 does surprisingly well comparatively, but don't use it for measuring powder charges.

If you haven't see it already on Youtube, maybe this one will make you feel better about what you're going through ;) :

 
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AuthenticShooter said:
Hi folks, new to handloading and am about ready to begin my load work up. I confirmed my chrono set up by firing some factory rounds and recording them and they are in line with the FPS listed on the ammo packaging. Some great advice from members OSO and D-4297 on best practices and starting charges and I am good to go.

So I get my powder measure all set up, my trickler is primed, and my RCBS digital pocket scale is calibrated. WAIT is it? I followed the directions, got it to PASS on the calibration process. So I charge the cases ( Ar-15 223 BTW) - 5 ea starting at 24.8.

It's going along good but every now and then the scale powers down, and I go through the whole calibration process again, cuz you know I am new, and I don't wanna leave anything to chance. Something makes me check, for giggles and grins, the first 10 rounds. WHAT THE _______.! They are all over then place by at least .2 to .4 grains! So I empty em all out and start over...Long story short -I could never get the same reading twice. I could fill a case, it reads 24.8 on the scale. Put it in the rack, finish the rest, then come back and check em and they don't measure the same!

This isn't good, (Also, when I try to use then TARE adjustment it doesn't work, the scale never zeros out to allow for the powder funnel. ) So I call RCBS and the first thing the tech says to me is "have you wiped the scale with a dryer fabric softener sheet?" I'm like what no I haven't - didn't know I was supposed to. He says yeah the scale is sensitive so that helps. Then he asks me " Are you using it under fluorescent light?" I tell him yeah. He says "The scale is sensitive and we recommend using it with LED lighting." Further inspection reveals I mispoke, I do have LED lighting installed over my bench, but not in the rest of my basement. But whatever - I take my cases upstairs to the kitchen where there is normal lighting and I measure them a third time. I seem to have more consistent results this time but I am thinking to myself - "this dang reloading is becoming more and more like alchemy."

So I don't know whether to trust these measurements or not. RCBS, to their credit, after I explained the TARE not zeroing issue, is sending me a replacement scale. Has anybody else experienced problems with RCBS digital scales? Am I just snake bit on this process or what?
Click to expand...
Say Goodbye to your bank account as well . Have fun it,s only money Tommy Mc
 
Straightshooter1 said:
This is pretty common for cheap small pocket type scales. If you're after precision weighing, or even close to it, you're not going to get consistent measurements. When I'm using my cheap Frankford Arsenal DS-750 scale, I'll weight a load. or whatever I'm weighing, several times and making sure the pan is sitting on the same place on the platform to see which number it comes up with the most and that's the one I accept as being the weight. I just don't feel one should expect these scales to produce consistent results, especially anywhere near what a lab quality scale can do. Though with some comparison testing I've done, I feel lucky that my little DS-750 does surprising well comparatively, but don't use it for measuring powder charges.

If you haven't see it already on Youtube, maybe this one will make you feel better about what you're going through ;) :

Click to expand...
LOL...that vid was worse than my experience thankfully. What I did for peace of mind was put the calibration weight on before and after, and if it read 50 before and after I went with the weight. I am not looking to shoot sub MOA groups, but I do want to try and produce as consistent a round as I can. Thanks for the post/reply.
 
ONe can also invest in a set of check weights or, OLD SCHOOL, find a compounding pharmacist and have hime way a few things to use as your own check weight like a dime a quarter and a couple of bullets.

Greg

PS: $$$? I have a PACT, a Chargemaster, an RCBS 10-10 and a 5-10 scale. I also have one of the little MTM pocket scales but I have not checked it out for accuracy. It was a gift..lol
 
I use check weights and rely mostly, on a balance beam scale. Once I devised a technique, my Lee Perfect Powder measure works fine. I throw the charge low then trickle up. To get it right, I zero both the beam and a digital scale. Then I set the charge weight on the beam and check it with weights. I also put the check weights on the digital scale. When both scales match, I throw a charge, trickle up on the beam then check it on the digital. If they match, I focus the entire loading session on the beam scale and shut the digital off. I weigh every charge and seat a bullet as soon as the case is charged. No charged cases sitting in the block.
 
GLShooter said:
ONe can also invest in a set of check weights or, OLD SCHOOL, find a compounding pharmacist and have hime way a few things to use as your own check weight like a dime a quarter and a couple of bullets.

Greg

PS: $$$? I have a PACT, a Chargemaster, an RCBS 10-10 and a 5-10 scale. I also have one of the little MTM pocket scales but I have not checked it out for accuracy. It was a gift..lol
Click to expand...
I am similar with a Charge Master (modified settings) RCBS 10-10, Ohaus 505 and a Bald Eagle. All have their place based on what I am loading. Keep at it, consistency in your process will also help.
Just my .02
Tim
 
Most electronic scales are not designed to accumulate weigh accurately, especially entry level scales. I would trickle into a beam scale that will repeat to its +,-. I keep a couple bullets that weigh similar to charges I typically throw. Throw short a couple tenths, trickle up on the beam. Bulk loading, throw to the center of .5-.6 charge node. Providing the powder used will throw accurately enough to stay in the node. I use LED lighting and run my RCBS electronic scale on a conditioned AC line and leave it on all the time. Calibrate before a loading session. I empty my powder thrower, and leave a static dryer sheet in the hopper when not in use. Keep notes, including how accurately your thrower works with different powders. Will save you time.
 
For the money, the Redding Master #2 scale is one of the best out of the box scales IMHO.
$102.99 on Amazon. Sounds like you need a change. There is a used one on eBay for 57.20 now.
Looks in good shape. You can do a search on this forum & see the general consensus.
 
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You may also have changing charge weights because they're absorbing or losing water. Powder should be kept in closed containers as much as possible, including seating a bullet immediately after charging a case. The manufacturer controls the amount of water in the powder and it's best to keep it constant by preventing it from changing.
 
I don't have one of the little ones, but something like the chargemaster scale doesn't have any of those issues. I use mine in an electromagnetic hell - florescent lights, transformers, wifi, cell phone near by, computer, and it never does anything weird, even in the winter when humidity is low (static is high). You don't need to calibrate it so often. Just check to see if it's good and load away.

If I had a scale that did what you're describing, I'd return it or throw it away. Messing with dryer sheets and throwing salt over your shoulder should not be required.
 
bozo699 said:
Spot on!…..
Nothing more frustrating than have close to 50 cases charged and spill a funnel full of powder over your cases or bump the loading block !…. I know been there more than once
Wayne
Click to expand...
I thought about this....and also the other comment(s) about water......the top pastry chefs all weigh their ingredients vs measure them. Reason is conditions change day to day which affects the consistency. Makes sense this same principle applies to powder charges. Several comments regarding this I will incorporate into future ops - 1. seat each bullet as soon as charged 2. using reference weights 3. Climate control 4. Throw each charge low, then trickle up.

And yes, I did leave a block of 50 charged and went back and weighed em,...annnnddd...they were different. :confused: So I emptied em all out, recharged em and seated them immediately.

Good stuff from all - thank you - this place is the best. And yes I did contribute, mods just have updated my profile yet ;)
 
damoncali said:
I don't have one of the little ones, but something like the chargemaster scale doesn't have any of those issues. I use mine in an electromagnetic hell - florescent lights, transformers, wifi, cell phone near by, computer, and it never does anything weird, even in the winter when humidity is low (static is high). You don't need to calibrate it so often. Just check to see if it's good and load away.

If I had a scale that did what you're describing, I'd return it or throw it away. Messing with dryer sheets and throwing salt over your shoulder should not be required.
Click to expand...
First go round and have dumped a lot ( for me ) of cash into the process....RCBS is sending me another no charge. I'm beginning to think these "kits" are sorta like loss losers - my kit came with what I need, but I have bought several tools after the fact that the kit supposedly covered. I just need to load some rounds up and drill down on m y processes. My goal is to make consistent rounds that I can practice with and become a better shooter for hunting and defense scenarios.

Being a new shooter my technique and skill level needs a lot of work. Having super accurate rounds means nothing if you are bouncing all over the place due to poor shooting! I'm getting there - I'm at 1.25" at 100yds with my Creedmoor 6.5 and right around 1" at 50yds with my AR-15 red dot. I practice using rests like I would in the field from a blind or in the bush - no sleds or sand bag type stuff.
 
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