Maximum Recommended Loads

[Keith Glasscock]

Published manuals have research behind them that none of you have done. You don't have the equipment.

Stay off my range with your heavy loads.

I never take loads off the internet.

Hmmm.

I understand your perspective on this subject, but this response is a bit shrill don't you think?

I disagree with your position on this and several other topics, that doesn't mean that we have to snipe at one another.

Let met explain my position a bit more clearly:
Sometimes, a test can be done that gives reliable results without strain gauges. For example, checking for plastic deformation of case heads does a nice job of determining whether the safe limits are being exceeded. You aren't going to test this with a dial caliper with any accuracy, but many of us have special tools to do just that.

Now, loading out of a manual can get one into a world of hurt as well. The assumption that all is well because it was tested on a different rifle in the laboratory is the first brick along the road to a boom. I would recommend using the techniques practiced by competitive shooters to determine if a load is too hot even while loading out of a manual. Likewise, certain powder and cleaning regimen combinations can and do result in very high pressures as carbon builds up.

Load safe,

 

[Homerange]

Published manuals have research behind them that none of you have done. You don't have the equipment.

Stay off my range with your heavy loads.

I never take loads off the internet.

While I agree with your sentiment for safety's sake isn't there much knowledge we reloaders can share with those that use our ranges, even as simple as pointing them to threads like this for better understanding of the "art" ?
I like to take an active interest in what others are reloading and why and I also benefit from learning something occasionally too.

 

[Auto-X Fil]

Jammer Six-

Are you suggesting nobody should shoot a bullet/powder/primer/OAL combination not explicitly listed in a paper loading manual? What are the wildcatters to do? How about those running a new bullet with no published data?

I agree that "pressure signs" are not a good indicator of actual pressure. But it's darn near impossible to blow up a bolt gun with rifle powder. The risks are actually quite low for someone working up carefully, and then backing down to provide some margin.

Of course, QuickLoad also provides a great starting point, but like any software - garbage in, garbage out.

 

[savagedasher]

Jammer Six-

Are you suggesting nobody should shoot a bullet/powder/primer/OAL combination not explicitly listed in a paper loading manual? What are the wildcatters to do? How about those running a new bullet with no published data?

I agree that "pressure signs" are not a good indicator of actual pressure. But it's darn near impossible to blow up a bolt gun with rifle powder. The risks are actually quite low for someone working up carefully, and then backing down to provide some margin.

I think Not Larry

 

[johnfred1965]

Published manuals have research behind them that none of you have done. You don't have the equipment.

Stay off my range with your heavy loads.

I never take loads off the internet.

Likewise, none of the manuals have MY rifle, nor have they done the research on MY rifle to tell me what is max. As everyone else said who intelligently answered this thread, work up carefully and KNOW the signs.

 

[bpm990d]

There is some colossally stupid stuff in manuals. Take the Berger manual for instance, which I think is next to useless. They have .223 loads using their 90gr VLD & Boat tail match bullets with an OAL of 2.260. Yeah that's the SAAMI spec! Who on earth shoots 90gr .224 bullets that require a 6.5 twist at an OAL that will function in a magazine! Manuals are reports of what they did with their gear and that's it.

 

[DHuffman]

Stay off my range with your heavy loads.

You load beyond published maximums, avoid my range.

No problem.

 

[ireload2]

You will get to see your share of stupid shooters who ask for loading data because they are too lazy and cheap to buy a half dozen manuals.
Those people who get away with overloads do so because the manuals are conservative and the manuals don't have a terrible number of errors.
You can even have a dangerous load with normal data when you have a chamber that is too big at the head or brass that is too small or both. This will cause a big step at the pressure ring. This is just an example of the need to understand what you are doing. A very close fitting polished chamber and brass combo may not show much in the way of pressure signs until the primer pockets expand or blow. It is up to you to learn how each rifle behaves with normal data.

I have seen destructive testing of several rifles fired by remote control in a steel channel in a shop environment. You would be surprised how much of an over load and abuse some old rifles will take. One of the test rifles was amazing. It was a 7.35 Carcano. The tester had ground the pilot of a .30-06 chamber reamer down and rechambered the .299 grove diameter rifle to .30-06. This rifle fired 180 grain bullets with a case full of 4895, another of 3031 and another of 4198 without much effect. I think the 4198 did expand the case head but the 4895 and 3031 appeared normal. A case full of 2400 caused the bolt lugs to fail.
Using another bolt a 8X57 round was fired with no ill effects other than straighten out the case. A 35 Remington round was fired in it. This case split because it was under size but it did not burst the case head. The oversize bullets squeezed down and went through the .299 bore.
A Spanish made 1893 Mauser and a CG 1896 Mauser were both tested until the receiver rings blew out and locking lugs failed but they were in NO WAY as tough as the Carcano. The Carcano bolts broke their lugs with the 2400 overloads but the bolt handle kept the bolt in the rifle even though the case head burst. With some of the same over loads the Mausers launched the lugless bolts out the back of the receiver. The Carcano receiver ring never failed no matter how much gas escaped from the failed case heads.

None of this is any recommendation to overload anything. Modern brass is pretty tough and your rifle might survive. Your eyesight may not survive. Many of these tests sprayed molten brass out of the actions in several places. I would not wish a face full of gas, molten brass and unburned powder grains on anyone. Wear your glasses no matter what you are shooting.

I see from time to time on this forum folks posting loads well beyond maximum listed in the loading manuals and pressures recommended by industry. There is talk about sticky bolts and primers may or may not show pressure signs. There is not much talk about some of the other pressure signs that occur with these high pressure loads. Usually there is talk about trying to reach a node. Many reply as if all is well and the practice is normal. I am amazed that we do not see more posts about catastrophic failures and serious injuries from these risky practices. I am most concerned about folks new to reloading that think this is normal and ok and are lured into doing something that may result in serious injury. I am more disappointed that those experienced reloaders that know better do not throw the bull shit flag.

 

[Homerange]

WOW ^^^ ireload thanks for sharing. Why do we never see stuff like that in print?
Anybody got any links to this sort of stuff?

 

[mike a]

So could someone post a list of steps on how to check for pressure. I'm working up a load for my 308 and may need a refresher course.

 

[M-61]

WOW ^^^ ireload thanks for sharing. Why do we never see stuff like that in print?
Anybody got any links to this sort of stuff?

P.O Ackley tried unsuccessfully to blow up an Arisaka. It and others are in his Vol.1 or 2 "Handbook for Shooters & Reloaders."

 

[Jammer Six]

Actually, I didn't think of wildcats.

 

[dcali]

If you know what you are doing, there are mitigating factors to "over-max" loads. You have to remember that much of hte time, these are not SAAMI spec loads. QuickLOAD, common sense, and care, *in some situations* allows for higher than book loads, or even *slightly* higher pressures to be used safely.

Beginner and intermediate reloaders ought to stick to book loads. But it's not as simple as over-book = dangerous. That's just not the way it works.