I see from time to time on this forum folks posting loads well beyond maximum listed in the loading manuals and pressures recommended by industry. There is talk about sticky bolts and primers may or may not show pressure signs. There is not much talk about some of the other pressure signs that occur with these high pressure loads. Usually there is talk about trying to reach a node. Many reply as if all is well and the practice is normal. I am amazed that we do not see more posts about catastrophic failures and serious injuries from these risky practices. I am most concerned about folks new to reloading that think this is normal and ok and are lured into doing something that may result in serious injury. I am more disappointed that those experienced reloaders that know better do not throw the bull shit flag.
Maximum Recommended Loads
- Thread starter chkunz
- Start date
All loads posted in books error on the side of caution. You will always see pressure signs, and they will vary from rifle to rifle. You normally have to grossly overload a round for most bolt guns depending on powder to cause issues. Autos are much more picky. It's not risky, it's just what it is. Because no brass or load reacts the same in every rifle it's all up to the user. Even some of the book loads listed may show pressure signs if it's a tight chamber. Nothing is a certainty or 100% accurate including what I just posted.
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You load beyond published maximums, avoid my range.
Bill 3508 I have inserted my comments into your reply. "All loads posted in books error on the side of caution." [this is not "error", it is wisdom] "You will always see pressure signs, and they will vary from rifle to rifle" [No, not always, I rarely see them because I do not go there]. "You normally have to grossly overload a round for most bolt guns depending on powder to cause issues.[not very comforting] "Autos are much more picky." [or less forgiving for risk] "It's not risky," [yes, that is exactly what it is, risk] it's just what it is [cop out]. "Because no brass or load reacts the same in every rifle it's all up to the user."[so lets not tempt folks who may be new to reloading to do risky things because some folks present risky as normal] "Even some of the book loads listed may show pressure signs if it's a tight chamber."[yes ] Nothing is a certainty or 100% accurate including what I just posted
Over book loads are common on any forum I've ever been on. Even more common on forums dedicated to accuracy where most people including myself have found their "best" loads near, at or over max. You'll find over book loads in the cartridge guide here on this forum. It's up to anyone reloading their own ammunition to work up to them if they choose to go over book max and watch for signs of over pressure. I've yet to see a moderator scold anyone for being over book and I doubt your thread is going to change anyone's reloading practices.
If you guys are bored and trying to get some drama started then by all means carry on!
If you guys are bored and trying to get some drama started then by all means carry on!
ab_bentley
I fix stuff, sometimes....
I'm completely in concurrence with the safety factor, but the wide safety margin painted by reloading manuals are asinine. To say that every rifle will react to a maximum load at this exact load is erroneous. And which load manual should we use, 99% of the time reloading manuals differ in max charges. The simple fact is that each rifle is different and reloading guides are just that, reference material, not gospel.
Adam
Adam
TEST with your equipment and components. When you see any over pressure signs, stop and think! It is your hands, face, and brain that may be adversely effected. Weigh it out, is the loss of your health worth an extra 50-100 FPS? Also please think about it, 50% of the people posting are probably in the lower 50% of the IQ level.
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CJ6
Silver $$ Contributor
Manuals are GUIDES not absolutes...tell me which load you'd consider as a MAX book load.. Win. 270, 130 gr bullet, 59.4 grs. RL 19 AOL 3.210... OR 270 Win. 130 gr bullet 53.5 grs. RL 19 AOL 3.300....My answer is your combo will tell you whats MAX....edit to add: There are several cartridges that were (6.5 x 284 for eg.) or are wildcats that may have 1 manuals starting loads 3-4 grs. higher than another manuals MAX load. You need to be safe ,work up, but a manuals "listed" MAX means didleysquat in YOUR firearm. You may be WELL under or WELL over any given book loads, BUT IT'S YOUR GUN THAT GOING TO TELL WHAT'S WHAT (higher or lower).
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watercam
Silver $$ Contributor
There is a reason that we are admonished to start low and work up. I have six reloading manuals (Sierra, Nosler, Lyman, Berger, Hornady and Speer). Plus I reference online loads on the Hodgdon, Vihtavouri and Alliant reloading data.There is a disparity amongst them regarding starting and maximum loads. I have found four of them that show 'real' maximum loads (those that I will not load beyond) and the others will keep one very safe. All have great value as to information for beginners, powder burn rates, etc.. The problem seems that few will spend the $$ on manuals any more which is a shame as they are bargains in the long run.
If the OP has yet not had enough evidence that any reloading need be done at the reloaders risk I offer this simple problem that I experienced.
Worked up a "safe" 222 load with 50gr flat based pills, under "published" max velocities but as I was going on a long range rabbit shooting trip (222 was all I had at the time) I decided to rework the load using boat tailed Noslers, still 50gr but instantly countered over pressure signs and an significant increase in velocity. Why? Same powder charge, same weight projectile.....WTF.
The cause was very simple, a longer projectile meant it need be seated deeper to be within OAL for the magazine in this rifle and doing so upset the volumetric efficiency of the load resulting in increased pressures.
Load reworked back to safe parameters but try as I might it wouldn't shoot as well as the original.
Lesson
Don't change projectile styles and assume a load will still be safe.
They don't tell you this in reloading manuals I have.
Worked up a "safe" 222 load with 50gr flat based pills, under "published" max velocities but as I was going on a long range rabbit shooting trip (222 was all I had at the time) I decided to rework the load using boat tailed Noslers, still 50gr but instantly countered over pressure signs and an significant increase in velocity. Why? Same powder charge, same weight projectile.....WTF.
The cause was very simple, a longer projectile meant it need be seated deeper to be within OAL for the magazine in this rifle and doing so upset the volumetric efficiency of the load resulting in increased pressures.
Load reworked back to safe parameters but try as I might it wouldn't shoot as well as the original.
Lesson
Don't change projectile styles and assume a load will still be safe.
They don't tell you this in reloading manuals I have.
The fact that the tester's chamber, barrel, brass, and primer/powder batch are different than mine is enough for me to understand that the Tester's max isn't mine. And that the difference could go either way. Then there's this:
Just started loading for 338 Lapua. Lapua cases, Berger 300gr OTM, VV N570.
VV's online data says "max" for this 300 gr bullet is 80.9gr, velocity 2592fps from a 27.5" barrel.
Quickload says this load generates 2376fps from that length barrel and a chamber pressure a little more than half max.
My own online search showed actual loads used from 85gr to 92.9gr generating MVs that actually make the cartridge useful. VV's own data shows a max of 92.4gr, MV=2746 for their own 300gr Scenar.
I'm probably going to be over book max
Just started loading for 338 Lapua. Lapua cases, Berger 300gr OTM, VV N570.
VV's online data says "max" for this 300 gr bullet is 80.9gr, velocity 2592fps from a 27.5" barrel.
Quickload says this load generates 2376fps from that length barrel and a chamber pressure a little more than half max.
My own online search showed actual loads used from 85gr to 92.9gr generating MVs that actually make the cartridge useful. VV's own data shows a max of 92.4gr, MV=2746 for their own 300gr Scenar.
I'm probably going to be over book max
Another thing, from my experience atleast, is that twist rate seems to affect things. I remember shooting 40's from a 7 twist 223 always showed pressure way early and my 14 twists I could go a grain or so about max published no problem. Could just be different chambers but its been common for me
+1.......Been a member here for 9 years and I can tell you this site is policed well by it's members where safety is concerned. The listing of a load is almost always accompanied by a safety disclaimer....if it is not, the Forum Boss is notified and action is taken. I have PM'd the Forum Boss on many such issues, one being threads that mention mixing powders. The listing of charges by click value also has long been banned.
Guess it's up to us individually to make a call on what's shared, load wise.
nastynatesfish
A day which we will live in infamy
Fact of the matter is I've never seen anyone say to load over max. I load all my rifle with a single round ladder test to find my max load. Each rifle is different. Freebore can be dramatically different from one rifle to the next. I've went as far as 3 grains over any published book max and never seen pressure in my rifle. That's the part of reloading. You can do what YOU feel safe doing. The problem I've seen is new reloaders reading online and assuming you have to load to touch the rifling for bet accuracy and that's not so. If your a new reloader you shouldn't be looking for load data online anyhow, especially not a forum. I've done a few wildcats that I couldn't even find data for for start or end points. I played with my 22/6mm a lot. A big factor is also what powder you are using
Just what is a book max load? Every loading manual I have is different. What one calls max might be 2+ grains different. And I used to have the old LEE manual and it had loads listed at higher max listings. I have found that one just has to start low and work up as they all say to do. I have got pressure signs way before I got to a book max.
That is precisely why I never take loads off the internet.
I only trust published sources. They have more legitimacy, they have far more to lose, they have conducted far more research and are far more conservative than Skeeter and Booger's Excellent Internet Boom-Boom Loading Forums.
Me neither. In addition I try not to publish my loads on the Internet, especially the ........ um..........."warm" ones. I'll talk about neck tension. FPS, case neck thickness, and whatever. But I try to avoid publishing how many grains of powder go into a particular case. I think each shooter needs to find that out for him/her self starting with reliable published data (hint: that usually means non-Internet) and working up from there.
Keith Glasscock
Gold $$ Contributor
For all who think that we should not use charges greater than publish "max" -
What should I do with cartridge/bullet combinations that there is no data for? What about long freebore chambers?
Should I sit on my hands and wait for Hornady/Nosler/Hodgdon/Sierra/Whomeveryoutrustasanexpert to publish data?
Gas pressure is a truly funny thing. I can take two nearly identical rifles and shoot the same ammo through them. If instrumented, I would find that they produce completely different pressures.
Pressure signs are the bread and butter of the handloader. Understanding how to avoid getting them while obtaining maximum performance from the rifle is what separates the expert from the guy that has to explain how many years he or she has been reloading.
What should I do with cartridge/bullet combinations that there is no data for? What about long freebore chambers?
Should I sit on my hands and wait for Hornady/Nosler/Hodgdon/Sierra/Whomeveryoutrustasanexpert to publish data?
Gas pressure is a truly funny thing. I can take two nearly identical rifles and shoot the same ammo through them. If instrumented, I would find that they produce completely different pressures.
Pressure signs are the bread and butter of the handloader. Understanding how to avoid getting them while obtaining maximum performance from the rifle is what separates the expert from the guy that has to explain how many years he or she has been reloading.
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